B2B SaaS Marketing: No progress after Series A without product marketing (podcast episode #148)

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Let’s step into these shoes for a minute. You’re the sole marketer at a B2B startup. You’ve been hustling, pitching investors, and finally you close your Series A. Suddenly, you have the budget to make real progress. What do you do next?

Here’s the lesson that stood out to me in a recent guest application: “There is no real progress in marketing, especially in B2B and post-Series A, without product marketing.”

I love that lesson and I think of product marketing as the translator between what engineers build and what customers truly need.

To hear the story behind that lesson – and many more insights born from wrestling with real revenue goals – I spoke with Asaf Raz, VP of Marketing at Agora.

Agora secured $34 million in Series B funding last year and has raised a total of $63 million in funds so far.

Raz manages a team of 12 demand gen, product marketing, creative, and field marketing professionals.

Listen using this embedded player or by clicking through to your preferred audio streaming service using the links below it.

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Lessons learned

Marketing can’t be successful without being connected to sales goals

In the first company where he did serious marketing, Raz was told by the CEO and the sales manager to bring in leads. But he didn’t know which kinds of leads and he didn’t have any specific goals around the task. Raz brought in a few leads, but nothing happened.

Afterward, he ended up asking exactly what leads were needed. They created a list of the leads they wanted; and Raz created a podcast and invited those people to speak on the podcast. After that, he introduced them to the sales team; they became customers.

Being able to show results of marketing through revenue is the only metric that matters.

One of the most important things about being a marketing executive is to know your market really well, knowing the actual people.

People won’t talk to you when you’re trying to sell them. What Raz always does is he creates a podcast; he invites all his relevant potential customers; and has heart-to-heart conversations with them to understand what they care about – their business and lives. Agora’s podcast is already in season three. It creates an opening to understand how they think; how they react to things.

When they did season one, he went to a conference and booked time in a room with Kim Wendland, a partner at Quattro Capital. They had a 45-minute conversation where they both ended up getting very emotional about their mothers; she cried on that episode because of her late mother. That conversation created this chain of events and made everybody at Quattro Capital fall in love with their team at Agora.

They understood they’re not talking to a tech company, but to real people.

There is no real progress in marketing, especially in B2B and post-Series A, without product marketing

Product marketing really helps build the foundation of messages that resonate with the audience and how they position themselves and find ways to lure people in. It’s an underestimated, very complicated job. You can’t do without it. Raz’s first hire is always going to be connected to revenue, and his second hire would be product marketing.

As they grew, especially at Agora, they had a lot of challenges around enabling the sales team – their messaging wasn’t great, it was hard for them to understand what their customers wanted. When he hired product marketing, he felt the difference. The messaging was more impactful. You saw it in the revenue numbers.

They completely revamped all their sales materials and their messaging on their advertising, followed by an immediate jump in revenue.

Lessons from the people he made it with

There’s nothing helpful that comes from complaining about things and blaming other people for your problems

via Olly Foroom

During his first job after the army in Israel, Raz worked in agriculture. He was a farmer. He wanted to understand what it means to work hard for when he moved on to doing a job he is interested in, but which won’t include such hard physical labor. Olly Foroom was his boss at the farming job, and he would say, “Stop complaining.”

There’s nothing helpful that comes from complaining about things and blaming other people for your problems. That was very grounding for Raz.

Take full ownership

via Tal Agassi, founder and owner of the app GOTit, a B2C fashion sales app

At GOTit, they sold fashion to their customers. Raz came in from agriculture and moved up the ladder very quickly – he managed all the other people except Agassi in the company. In the first six months, Agassi would call him ‘half a dish’ in Hebrew because he felt Raz would start doing things but not finish them.

It was hard for him to hear back in the day; but it helped him create ownership of projects.

Raz also discussed what it’s like to live in an entrepreneurial culture, the inspiring entrepreneurial stories he’s surrounded by – like Maor Shlomo who bootstrapped a lean, AI-first startup into an $80 million exit to Wix in just six months, but also the reality that most entrepreneurs will never achieve that level of success.

Frame for persuasion

via Scott Jonasz, VP of Global Sales & Alliances at Elsight

Jonasz was a big mentor to Raz and taught him everything about B2B marketing and sales cooperation, negotiation tips, how to run a sale, what prospects want, how to get a deal done, how to get a contract signed and how marketing can help. Raz learned a lot from him about convincing people to get what you want but making sure that they think they were the initiators of it.

He taught Raz how to do it and Raz saw it live repeatedly, both for internal and external stakeholders. That helped him understand how to frame stories, build content, and the idea that people will be convinced of what they believe is true. Jonasz was an important person in his career and very close to him. From Jonasz, he also learned how marketing fits into the picture, and he helped Raz build his confidence.

Discussed in this episode

Product Quality: Marketing's job is to help the product win (podcast episode #97)

Marketing Career: How to become an indispensable asset to your company (even in a bad economy)

Customer-First Marketing: The customer is always right … but not always right for your company

Clarity Trumps Persuasion: How ordinary marketers are learning to write high-impact copy

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Transcript

Not ready for a listen yet? Interested in searching the conversation? No problem. Below is a rough transcript of our discussion.

Asaf Raz: Hey, this quarter was great. I brought in 1500 beats and everybody says, oh, cool. Where are they? What do you mean you brought them in? What do they what did they do? What do they do? Right. There's always this big disconnect, especially when it comes to marketing and sales and marketing sales being aligned. That creates a lot of issues.

So the first thing that when I joined a core, the first thing I focused on is how do I generate revenue? So how do I pick those low hanging fruits inside my marketing side, my niche? For us, it's real estate. And great real, revenue that I can put my stamp on and say this was because we did X, right.

As time goes by and you grow as a company, you start also ING have also having impact across the funnel on different types of different types of leads and deals and companies, whatever that is. But for me, being connected to those goals is what makes a big difference. That's how I buy, the trust of the sales team.

That's how I can secure my more budget.

Intro: Welcome to how I made it in marketing. From marketing Sherpa, we scour pitches from hundreds of creative leaders and uncover specific examples, not just trending ideas or buzzword laden schmaltz. Real world examples to help you transform yourself as a marketer. Now here's your host, the senior director of Content and Marketing at Marketing Sherpa, Daniel Bernstein, to tell you about today's guest, Ethan.

Daniel Burstein: Let's step into these shoes for a minute. You're the sole marketer at a B2B startup. You've been hustling, pitching investors, and finally, you close your series a suddenly you have the budget. You can make real progress. What do you do next? Here's a lesson that stood out to me in a podcast guest application. There is no real progress in marketing, especially in B2B and post series without product marketing.

I love that lesson, and I think of product marketing as the translator between what engineers build and what customers truly need. So joining me now to share the story behind that lesson and many more insights. Born from wrestling with real revenue, gold is Sephora's VP of Marketing at Agora. Thanks for joining me today.

Asaf Raz: Thanks so much, Daniel. I'm really happy to be here. It's been we've been preparing for this for a long time. So very excited.

Daniel Burstein: We're going to have fun. But before we dive into the conversation, I want people to understand who I'm talking to. You looking at your background a bit, it's AB has been an operations manager at Got It marketing director site for the past four years. He has been at Agora, Agora, Secure $34 million in series B funding last year, and a total of $63 million in funds raised so far.

And Assaf himself manages a team of 12 demand gen product marketing, creative and field marketing professionals globally across both Tel Aviv and New York. So give us a sense. What is your day like as VP of marketing?

Asaf Raz: Busy. Very busy. Mostly. A lot of meetings, brainstorming conversations. And then, like, I don't know, an hour ago, I find myself, running through HubSpot and fixing emails before they go out to customers. Right. So it's a mix between what I need to do with my hands to make sure things happen to how do we think about the future and how I think about, a year to a year, three years from now is where the company is going.

So really is a big mix between the both, I would say again, that part of I think it will go later in the conversation, staying connected to the ground into the business has been really helpful. So always make time to do really technical things. So I stay close to the ground and stay close to the game. That makes sense.

Daniel Burstein: No, I love that. I mean, we've had these conversations. When you grow in your career, when you become a leader, how do you not lose touch? How do you not lose your edge? So I love that you kind of keep your fingers in the pie. Some, Well, let's take a look at some of the lessons you've learned from the things you've made your career.

As I've said before, I've not worked in another career. I've not been an actuary or podiatrist. But I think we get to make things. That's a really cool thing and work, and we get to make things. So let's look at some of the lessons from some of the things you made. You said that marketing can't be successful without being connected to sales goals.

So how did you learn this lesson.

Asaf Raz: The hard way? Right. So, so, so so I'll say like this. Most marketeers that I know, and I, it's like a general theme of marketing is connecting to what I call vanity metrics. Right? So let's say, hey, this quarter was great. I brought in 1500 leads and everybody says, oh, cool, where are they? What do you mean you brought them in?

What do they what did they do? What do they do? Right. There's always this big disconnect, especially when it comes to marketing and sales and marketing sales being aligned. That creates a lot of issues. So the first thing that when I joined a core, the first thing I focused on is how do I generate revenue. So how do I pick those low hanging fruits inside my marketing side, my niche for assets, real estate, and create real, revenue that I can put my stamp on and say this was because we did X right.

As time goes by and you grow as a company, you start also can have also having impact across the funnel on different types of different type of leads and deals. And companies, whatever that is. But for me, being connected to those goals is what makes a big difference. That's how I buy, the trust of the sales team.

That's how I can secure my more budget, right, is to say, hey, I can connect. I have a direct line between this action that I did to revenue. Right. And I, I focus and I, I get really, specific when I try to attach, revenue to the, to the things that we do. And even if it's PR or brand or whatever that is.

A good example would be that sometimes I'd find myself sitting through sales calls and customer success calls to see if they mentioned something around the podcast that we're doing, or a recent PR that we had, or a social post that they like. And we also today, the world is evolving really quickly. We have these, this network of signal tools that we look, look at and we learn from.

So it's also the steals. It's still, it's, leads deals in the pipeline and customers. How do they engage with the things that we do? So I, I'm very fanatic at finding out what impact I have.

Daniel Burstein: So what process do you use to translate the sales revenue target into specific marketing goals? Because, for example, when I interviewed Brad Gillespie, who's a GM of C Event Consulting, one of his lessons was marketing's number is the sales number. He told the story of how they plan. It's all about sales there. So is there anything specific you do when it comes to planning to make sure that everything's aligned like you're talking about.

Asaf Raz: 100%? And we're consistently, consistently learning. So, a lot of times when we start doing this, there's this difference. You say, okay, this is marketing. They do X, I measure them by inbound leads, inbound deals, inbound revenue. Right. And there's the SDR team. They measure them by, how many emails they send, how many opportunities they brought in, how many new customers do they have.

Right. And we have conferences and you have referrals and you start building this kind of network. Here are the sources. Right. And as we were planning year over year, we always sat together in the same room. And we said, how does this, divide between the team, how much percentage growth is this, how much percent, percent that goes to that over time?

What we realized is that and this our planning for 2026, we realized that that's not the truth in B2B ever, right? It's not one touchpoint that makes the whole difference. It's a mix of touchpoints. And with today's technology, G you know, an AI, an amazing tool that we use internally like a clay and swan AI and MIT bound and a bunch of other tools that we use, we can actually collect and track signals that are both coming from the SDR team, from external sources, from marketing, from advertising.

Right. We have all this information, and then what we do is we say, okay, we're moving from a source based tracking to a holistic, what we call all bound motion, where we just say, here is the mix of touchpoints that we need to bring this specific type of customer, and we break that down by, okay, how much revenue is that, what type of customers we should have, what's the mix between them?

How many touch points do we need? How much does it cost us. And we break it down. Again, very very deeply, together with SDR leaders, sales leaders, marketing leaders to really understand what our mix of revenue is going to look like throughout the year. And this year, we're going to connect it to it all by motion. So it's like we're not going to heavily track the source.

We're going to heavily track the touchpoints across the funnel until they become our customer. That makes sense.

Daniel Burstein: Now. I love that because buyers have a journey and the better we understand that journey, the better we can serve them. But we also need to understand what to put in those touchpoints. And some of the things I like that you said so far is just kind of how hands on you get. Like you said, being on sales calls and listening for mentions.

You also mentioned that another lesson, one of the most important things as a marketing executive is to know your market really well, knowing the actual people and you really get in there and specifically talk to them. Right.

Asaf Raz: So first, on a first month category, I was employee 14. The first thing that I did is I said, okay, I don't come from real estate, right. But I need to understand the market. And more than that, I need to understand the ICP, I need to I need to understand the people who they are, what they like, what they think.

And I had this big stigma, right? Real estate people are they're not tech to tech oriented. They're not innovative. They're Rolodex style, old school pen and paper people. Right. That was what I thought about it. And I said, well, I'm not going to really know if I'm not going to have conversations and they're not going to have a conversation with me.

If I say, hey, you want to see our product? And, also, I want to know more about you. So, you know what? I'm just going to set up calls, offer them to be part of my podcast. That podcast goal for the first season, at least, was to just have conversations with the market, learn about them and learn about real estate and across, say, around 40 recorded episodes.

Not all of them were released. I learned so much about these people, right? And I learned that I was wrong in most of the cases, and I learned what they care about, and I thought they care about the Rolex watch and the Ferrari and the investment homes that they have in Florida when they go on vacation. And I learned that they care about their family and their kids and going taking their kids to summer camp and playing the guitar with them.

And I remember this story with, this amazing woman. Her name is Kim Wen. Then she's a partner at Quattro Capital who also became our customer. So it's also been a revenue driver for us. We had a 45 minute conversation where we got so deep into her history, her family life, what got her into real estate. And we created okay.

It's such a strong personal connection that I learned about her and her business really, really well. But that connection eventually drove revenue. So she called me a couple months after and said, hey, we're ready to leave our core platform. Can I have someone in a group to talk to? Because she remembered the experience she had with me, right.

And that was across the board with several people. And I'll also say that if you invite someone to speak on a webinar, on a podcast, I my response rate wasn't 90%. So nine out of ten people said, of course, people love speaking about themselves. People like they love showing the world how good, cool, professional they are, how much they are a leader or a thought leader in the space.

And this became a real, revenue engine branding engine and also a self-learning tool for me. So that was kind of a, that was that is my way to stay connected to the market. I do it to this day. So I have a lot of really cool conversations with people, and I learn something new every day. It's more professional now.

I know much more about real estate, can have more professional conversations, but I'm consistently meeting these people and I'm also giving them something in return. I promote them, I publish them, I give them the stage as they are the professionals, and I'm just the person navigating the conversation.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah, I love hosting a podcast and getting to interview people. Of course we're doing it for the audience, doing it for you. But honestly, if I saw you do an event, I would want to walk up to you and ask you all these questions for an hour and we'd be awkward, you know?

Asaf Raz: But I was.

Daniel Burstein: Supporting, right? It's somehow it's okay. Right?

Asaf Raz: 100%, 100%. And it it feels better. It feels great. You know, it creates a really strong connection. So yeah, that was a big hack for us.

Daniel Burstein: Well, I love what you do because you're looking through the database, right? A lot of times we should look at these database engine numbers and these analytics, and you're seeing real people. But that's the 1 to 1 basis, right? So take us into the bigger basis, how you learn about customers as a whole, right? I mean, for example, when I interviewed Christian Zhivago, one thing she told me that she did, she also, interviewed customers.

It wasn't on a podcast. It was just more like, you know, phone conversations and asking them and what she would look for. It's patterns, like if she's like, if I interviewed 5 to 10 people, like, that's really all you need to start seeing patterns. Another thing you mentioned when we talked, you've got all these different tools that are kind of analyzing touch touchpoints and these sorts of things.

So we've got the 1 to 1 and that really human element. You painted that picture. What do you do at the aggregate level to understand your customer base?

Asaf Raz: My customer base and I would also say my general market. So we're in what we got, we're a vertical SaaS company. So we're now what we call a limited market. It means that there's a at every single moment. There's a limited amount of companies in the market. Right. So I learn across the board. Right. Both on my market and through my customers.

Right. So it's, because it's limited. They have a lot of tools that help me analyze that and understand what's going on. But from my customer perspective, I think the things that I listen to, mostly the patterns that I listen to mostly are honestly usually not related to the products, or the technology. They're usually related to where they're at from a business perspective and real estate, there's a lot of impact to where the market's at right now.

So let's say interest goes higher, right? That has a direct effect on the pocket of every single real estate investment firm okay. Because they are leveraged on their deals. And that interest rates, interest rate bump could potentially stop them from doing acts. So stop them moving platform, stop them from paying for a new platform. Stop them from fundraising.

Right. New new money. So but I listen to his business trends more than I listened to product trends. That's what I focus on. So I understand what message could work for them. So, for example, 2023, there was a big bump in interest rates, right? Was it was very extreme. And it affected their pocket. So our entire messaging shifted to save time, save money.

Because you're going to work with our product, but you're also going to work with our accounting team. And by just using our accounting team, you're going to save 50% on your fees. So that was our message for a year now interest rate goes down efficient. They want more efficiency but they want to move faster because they want to buy new deals.

So I'm now going to focus my entire messaging on let's help you fundraise faster. Let's say you close more deals with your investors so you can focus on making money, actually buying new real estate deals. So and obviously also listen to how they use their product and why they moved and why they like it. So I can move those messages across.

For example, I know that a lot of our customers, when they come in, they fear our onboarding. Just because it's such sensitive financial data and they're investor data and just making their investors uncomfortable is something that they never want to do. So we've built this entire narrative that we have a new video that came out like three days ago about how, the onboarding process could feel like a Rubik's Cube.

But when you do that with a goal, right, it's just very easy. And that entire narrative of a Rubik's Cube. So I listened to those patterns. And then by those patterns, I create Q and A's articles, videos, promotions, and I also match them by the type of the customers or how big they are, where they're located geographically, let's say in the States.

So again, I listen first. They're business people. So I listen to the business patterns first, and then I listen to the product patterns, because data is something that comes later in the funnel. And it can also be connected to what you said at the beginning with product marketing.

Daniel Burstein: Well, let's talk about that product marketing connection, because as I mentioned now, congratulations, funds raised $63 million series B, but there was a time earlier in that path. So let's go back to that. Earlier time, you had said there is no real progress in marketing, especially in B2B and post series A without product marketing. So take us back to that kind of maybe series A fundraise and why you jumped into product marketing.

What you've done at that?

Asaf Raz: A lot of stuff. The first thing that I realized is that, honestly, let's be connected to the to the ground for a second. I needed to create a lot of sales decks, a lot of one pagers, lots of information for the sales team we had. We had features going out all the time. We had new things in the product that we had to communicate externally, and I didn't really have anyone who's owning it.

Right. So, for example, a, sales team member comes to me and says, I have this type of customer who comes from a very specific vertical and real estate. He's a fund for, education facilities. Right. And he raises capital to invest in those. And his fund structure is very unique. I need to have a tailored sales deck that says that we answer to those unique right needs.

And that is something that consistently happens all the time because our customers have their unique models, their unique structures. And I needed to really help him push deals through the funnel. And that's where I realized way features go out all the time. You don't communicate them well, not to our customer base and also not to the market. We don't use that as a driver of revenue, and our sales team is struggling to deliver the message the way that we want them to so we can make the deals close.

And I said, okay, you know what? That's when I realized I need an owner. I need someone to own this entire space from the top of the funnel as well. But as we go down towards let's. So let's say that someone, sees the message fundraise capital foster. Right. And he clicks that ad and he goes to our website.

And the next question is going to be how? When someone asks the question how, that's where product marketing comes in and needs to create this narrative, this message across the funnel. So when he says how we will see on the landing page, because you're going to be more efficient, because you're going to get subscriptions faster, because people are going to sign faster.

I want that he signs up for a demo when the sales person, when the sales rep comes up, the air comes up and you should say, hey, I know you came here because of the fundraising. Here are the top three functionalities in the product that will make you raise capital faster. Here you click here, you click here. That's what happens right when you do this and you do this.

That's what's going to work for you. And building that story requires a product marketing person to see how everything connect. Make sure the materials and the content and the demo flows and everything until they sign the document that they signed. The contract with us is coherent and answers their needs. And that's where I just it just clicked and I said, I need someone to own product marketing.

Cross the funnel. Today we have a director of product marketing. We have a product marketing manager in New York, and we're hiring another product marketing manager here in Tel Aviv. Just because we realized as the product grows, we'll need more and more of that.

Daniel Burstein: I think it ties into greatly to what you said earlier about I'm not just going to throw 1000 leads at them and say, hey, here you go. Hopefully these leads turn into something. Harbison so what role when you talk about product marketing, what role does marketing play in actually shaping the features of the product? Because I've talked to marketing leaders who are like, okay, I physically put the product marketing team between the marketing team and between the product development team, because I want them to be that linchpin and not just receive features but push them out.

I mean, you talk about such this granular understanding of you have about the market and the customers. How does that go back into the product?

Asaf Raz: That's a, a great question. And I also have a good answer for that. With with also a specific example I can share with you. So when we launch products today and again, it's really depends on the company. What led us was the product team. Right. So far. They came in. They said, hey, here are the ten new features that are going to come out.

Because they do great research. They have conversations with the customers. That's all great, right? And some of them are features that they need or we have to have them. So we get to this baseline and some features are just, you know, forward looking innovative. We're trying something out. And at a certain point they came in and said, okay, we have this new big thing happening, right?

It's in the space of AI, how we integrate AI into our product. And so it's a whole conversation that I assume most companies are having. And when we started having those conversations, I said, me and Derek, our director of product marketing, went to the conversation and said, wait, we're not sure how the market is going to receive it and where we need to start.

Why? Because from calls that we had, our competitor just launched an AI tool, and when we had conversations with companies that are they're looking at us and at the competitor, we saw that specifically the CFOs are fearful of two things. They scared that they're scared that the data is not going to be accurate. So it's going to hallucinate data, and they're scared that it's going to take that data and it's going to share that to investors again, which is very sensitive information.

It's their money. They're investing with it with the the real estate firms. And we said when you think about this solution, we need to think about the first step, the second step, third step. And that's where we came in and said that's where we need the first. The first step needs to be here, right. So for example, we said to the product in the first step should be only gathering data from the platform with AI no action based.

Just help them collect the data. Let's build the trust with our AI tool to really collect good data and understand. And they will see that it works in X amount of time. Let's start thinking about selling the workflow and selling the actions that they can take based on that information. Right? Our competitor took a leap. They said we're going to do everything that scared some people.

So what we realized through these conversations that in real estate, they're just scared. They don't necessarily want to go all out on AI tomorrow morning. It could change in two weeks and three weeks or four weeks. We listen to those conversations all the time and we react to them very quickly. And that's how we come with information, the product team and say, that's what we're seeing from the go to market perspective.

Daniel Burstein: That's such great wisdom because in any tech product, we always feel like we got to be so cutting edge and be first to market and all these things, and you really bring up a good point. Sometimes you can be a little too fast if you move before the market is ready for it, especially with something like AI. That's that's a really good insight.

Well, we just talked about some lessons from, ourselves career where he built some things and brands lead campaigns, even help build the product itself. In just a moment, we'll talk about some of the lessons he learned from some of the people who built it with. First, I should mention that the how I Made It marketing podcast is underwritten by MC labs AI, the parent company of Marketing Sherpa.

You can get conversion focused training from the lab that helped pioneer the conversion industry in our AI Guild and a community to collaborate with. Grab your free three month scholarship to the AI Guild at Joint Mic Labs ai.com that's joining MC labs ai.com to get AI working for you today. All right. Let's talk about some of the people you learn from in your career.

You first mentioned Ali Forum. And you mentioned you learned from Ali that there's nothing helpful that comes from complaining about things and blaming other people for your problems. There's a very big life lesson there. But how did you how did you learn that lesson?

Asaf Raz: So I was young, I just finished my army Army service here. That is, mandatory in Israel. And I said, you know what I'm going to do before I go into this whole tech thing and, and start from something that is, like, very innovative techie, I'm going to go work in agriculture. I'm going to go and I'm going to put my I'm going to wake up 4 a.m., I'm going to get on my on my, there was like an electric truck.

And I used to drive and I would drive around the farm and make sure all the workers have what they need. I'll have lunch at 11 a.m. because I woke up at four and I. I'm going to really live and breathe, the ground. And actually, I was, I was doing agriculture. I was, I was using all the tools and I was doing the, the watering and and I did that for around, I would say 12 months.

Right. It was hard work. It was hot. And then in the winter it was cold and I was sweating and I was getting wet. And again, it was very, it was very hard physical work, less mental work. Right. And every time something didn't work, I was I was very young. So I would go to him who was my boss, and he was the owner of the farm.

And he said, why isn't this working? And I said, well, it's not working because this person or that person didn't make it happen. For example, our watering system didn't work for like three days on one of our most, prices crops. I would never forget this. And he got so angry with me, they said, why didn't it work?

And I said, well, you remember the person that came to fix this? He tried to fix this, and he said he fixed it. So I was like, okay, I'm going to time and I'm going to leave. I don't need to come back for another five days. It's going to water itself. And I didn't come back, not once, not twice now.

Right. So third day he goes and he was like, why didn't you check that? And I realized that I can't complain about about things not working if I don't own them. And I can't point my finger at other people because the work hasn't been done. So like I told you in the beginning of this episode, if an email needs to be sent out to customers and there is a design issue in the email itself, I need to go into the email and I need to make sure everything is aligned to help my people and my team make sure it goes out 100% like we wanted it to, and I'll teach them and I'll help on

how to do that. But that for me at that point was a lesson to say when I get to work, not outside and the heat farming, and I'll actually work in a place where I'm, I'm going to be mostly sitting around my front of my computer with the air conditioning on right. And I'll feel very comfortable physically. I'll know there's nothing I can complain about, and my work is whatever I do is going to be much easier than what I did.

That was the goal there, and he really taught me that lesson. It was just very grounding. And I still appreciate those lessons today. And I also enjoy going out to, you know, my yard and growing, you know, my, my vegetables and my plants or whatever that is. Just I still like doing it. I still have memories of it just feels good to touch the soil sometimes.

Daniel Burstein: As that field marketing I.

Asaf Raz: In some ways, in some ways that's field marketing that. Yeah, 100%.

Daniel Burstein: No it's great. It's a great loss of to not just to jump into tech or something else right away that have some real life experiences. They, they, they help you, you know, so thinking that obviously I can see there's some great internal lessons there of how to run a team, how to make sure things are executed properly.

But I want to kind of ask you more of an external question. And that is we sometimes feel like we want to solve problems too much. Right. And what I mean by this is sometimes a customer comes to us with a problem, we're like, oh, boom, let's go to technical, let's solve it. But sometimes they have that problem because the customer isn't right for us.

And I wonder if you have any experience with that, with customers coming to you and saying, hey, there's these features, these benefits, whatever it might be. One thing I've written before is the customer is always right, but it's not always right for your company. Right? And if you and if you listen to some of those companies, the customer, sometimes they take you off track.

So any experience or any life lessons, anything we've been able to, anything you can share with us.

Asaf Raz: So when I think about, first of all, yes, 100%. And when I think about a business, I think about it as, you know, I look at the entire market and I think about it as a fish. Right. The tail of the fish is the smallest companies or the smallest users or whatever you call it in your company.

It's going to be that tail of the fish, right? That front head, front of the, face of the fish is going to be those huge enterprise companies that maybe could be your company. Again, that's B2B could be different. And turbo companies depends on. But those are going to be your biggest, biggest, biggest clients. And what I realize is that for us, we're an SMB focused company and we are slowly but surely moving upmarket.

As we continue to build our brand, we continue to build our product. We are moving up market very, efficiently, but also not too quickly. Right? So when we started anything on that tail side of the fish was great for us because it helped us close more customers, bring in more revenue, book more logos, and create this kind of brand that grows into SMB, SMB, what we call SMB plus.

Right? And creating this okay, we we have a really good SMB motion today. It's a machine, right? And at a certain point we said, wait, those customers that came in from that tail side of the fish, they're starting to churn. They are not using the product enough. They're asking for a lot of iconic features, like they're so small they don't even understand sometimes what contract they should be writing to get their investors to actually sign with them.

Right? They have sometimes lack of knowledge, lack of experience. It's their first time doing it. And those customers a lot of times because they were just as a business, they couldn't really succeed and push through it. We were we were losing them by the numbers and we said, what are we going to do? And I called back in the day, I called that losing the tail said, we need to understand that if we want to move forward, we're going to have to give up some of our customers or build something for them.

That puts them in a very unique place in our company, in in our product that requires us to do less. And so some of that tail we completely got rid of and we said, we're not going to service these customers anymore. The customers that we had were serviced, but we were not going to find new ones because it's taking a lot of effort from our team and not enough income for us.

And we also build this package. We call it offering only in our space where we built, this very tailor pact for them that puts them inside the circle of services and really helps them grow with us. Right. So usually like 50% of them would probably die as a business and leave, but 50% were going to able to grow and push into that SMB space.

Right. So we really realized what's that niche that we don't need. On the flip side, on the other side of that fish, we closed a couple of larger customers early on, and we took commitments to do so many improvements and changes, and we had this timeline with them. We're going to make that happen for you. And that was also a big mistake right?

Today the product is ready for those type of customers. Two years, three years ago we were not there. And sometimes making those commitments, it's just better to say instead of, you know, breaking your your reputation or pushing the roadmap every time they get disappointed as to say, we're not ready for you now, we are going to be ready for you and X amount of time at that time, we're going to reach out.

We're going to try to do this again, and we know you're going to love it. And you'll see our progress from now to then, and you're going to respect us even more. So we made a conscious decision not to sell, more than X amount of companies per year from that type. It was about like 1 or 2 of these type of customers per year.

Now we have a really good product because those 1 or 2 customers we signed that help us build it to fit that type of vertical. And now we keep selling to those customers because we can because the products, they're the services there, we can do much more. So we do make very conscious decisions in that we try not to make mistakes.

Just that we don't have these type of issues. And we can focus our customer success team and our product team on building what the majority of our customers need. That makes sense.

Daniel Burstein: No. And you're 100% right. But that's a that's a hard internal conversation. I mean, how is it for the VP of marketing to go to the team and say, hey, let's not sell to these really big clients? Was there anything special we had to do to like to convey it to people? Did everyone kind of get it?

Asaf Raz: They got it. They understood. A lot of time we focused on building relationship with those companies so that for the day that we're ready, we're going to have that relationship and say, hey, we have that thing that you wanted. It's ready for you. But it was a very hard conversation. People said, what do you mean? But we bring them in, like present of the small ones, right?

We bring them in by the dozens. It's cheap. The cost per acquisition is so cheap. Why don't we keep doing that? Well, if you're churning 70% of those customers, it's not worth it. But if you can find me that niche of small customer, we churn. You know what? We turn 50%, but the other 50% grows with us. That's where I want to put my money on.

So it's a really hard conversation to say no to specific things or to say, let's wait. But it's paying off now on the long run. So like right after, now that we're three years and three years after those conversations, now they respect us. Now we're considered a top tier in our, in terms of the competition. So we have us, another, competitor that are considered like top tier, the best product and then the rest of them, and it's it's helped us build our brand, build our reputation.

Now it's easier for us to bring them in. And again, it was a hard decision, but it it pays off.

Daniel Burstein: Well, when I hear you talking, I can hear a focus on the big picture, not just your marketing patch itself, which can be a problem like the whole company, the whole business, and also the long term. Not just a short term. I think that ties into the next lesson you talked about. You said take full ownership and you said you learned this from Tal Agassi, the founder and owner of Yap Got it, which was a BDC fashion sales app.

So how did you learn this from Tal?

Asaf Raz: It was, it was a harsh boss. Very harsh. It was one of the people that I, I have tons of respect for this person. He went through so much. He comes from a very well known, Israeli family that works in tech. So they were the they were the family that did a better place. If you remember the electric cars, it was a big thing here in Israel.

It failed completely because it was a lot of reasons, was too early. There was a bunch of issues there, but there are big entrepreneurial family and right when I finished agriculture, I don't I will never forget it. I finished my day at work. I drove up to his house. Someone got me to meet him because you has something to offer me, and I knew how to speak English.

That was the criteria. And I literally that. And I came inches. I remember I went to his house, yeah, the small startup happening. And I came in with my, you know, filthy from work with my agricultural clothes. I used to have a ponytail. It was like, completely not the persona you want for that type of company. And he sat with me and said, why do you want to join?

And I said, I want to join because I know how to work hard and everything else I'm going to learn. And he said, what? But you know how to work hard because I've worked in agriculture. I was I sold them, he took me. And three and a half years I worked in his business. I started doing support for the customers, that are buying clothes, or fashion items from the app.

I was like a sales app for, for fashion and clothing and streetwear and stuff like that. And I quickly manage the entire team and managed, the bank accounts, the disputes, everything that goes into B2C fashion. This whole, like, Shopify style online sales. And it was very quick, on the one hand, really believed in me and gave me a lot of responsibility.

On the other hand, he set us off. Every time you come to me with something, it's half baked. And he called me, and there's a dish, there's a dish in Israel called falafel. So it's essentially like a pita bread with the bunch of like, there's balls in there with the tahini and a bunch of stuff in there. And in Israeli, if you go to the store, if you go to a place to get that, you can get a full dish or you can get a half a dish.

So it's like half a bit of bread with that because you're not so hungry and he used to be very harsh with me. He used to tell me, Assaf, you're you're half a dish. You're not a full dish because you come to me with this and it's it's half baked. Doesn't say anything to me. There's no action items.

I have no idea what we're going to do with this. I understand what you're trying to think, but this is not even. It's not even close. Right. And he used to push me in so many ways, and he always repeated this, and it was hard. He always repeated this. And I said to myself, I'm not, I'm not. I'm going to do everything I can.

I'm a full dish, right? I forget I remember this vividly, like that type of feeling that I had with him. And that made me understand that it doesn't matter how hard I work, how many hours I put in, how much sweat and tears I put into the things that I do. If I don't bring results, if I don't close the full cycle and I don't own, for better or for worse, my things, I will never be successful.

Will just never work for me, right? I used to work 16 hour days. I was on my computer for hours and hours and hours. It was crazy. If one of my team got sick, I had to do all the work for him so I would sit for literally hours. I used to take like 1 or 2 breaks during the day and just work for three and a half years, and just taught me that if I don't own everything that I do to the extreme and I'm not saying to be, you know, push your hands into other people's work, it means that I need to make sure it's done either by me or someone else.

But I need to make sure the loop is closed. Then I would it would never work out for me and I respect him so much for that. Today. I understand how much of I look back, how much of a childish mindset I had that I thought that if I do something really cool, he's going to like it. And he doesn't care about that.

He cares about how much revenue I bring into the company, or how I think I will make things more efficient, or how I make the other team members work better, harder, longer, and faster. Right? And that was the mind. That's where everything kind of shifted for me.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. You know, something that really is interesting when you're talking about this, I'm thinking you kind of straddle two worlds. You mentioned you spend a lot of time in New York or Tel Aviv. Now, Israel, startup nation. How do you make sure what Startup Nation produces works in another culture, right, like America or wherever? Because when you talk about Better Place, when I first read, that was a pretty brilliant idea.

And if anyone didn't remember, it's like, you know, what is it, electric cars. What's the biggest challenge? Well, it takes a long time to charge them, right? This was like over a decade ago and charges were even slower. So they had this great ideas as I remember it, they would swap out the battery. So instead of charging the battery you would like, I guess, pull into some garage and this automated thing would swap it out and then, you know, they could compete with gas.

I always thought was interesting because Israel is a tiny nation. I don't know if people realize that so much so I don't know how much really driving you do. If that would be successful, you'd want to export America as a massive nation, right? Where you'd have to have these these places, you know, all over the place. So it just gets me thinking, why Startup nation, so much innovation, so much tech?

Is there anything you need to do to bridge any sort of cultural divide when you're not going to sell Latin America or any other culture?

Asaf Raz: 100% and everything that you do, I so I'll, I'll talk about a better place for, for the sake of the conversation for a second. And then I'm going to mention a specific case that we had here at Agora. So, you talked about Israel as a startup nation, but I don't know if you know this about Israel.

Everybody in Israel, it's specific at a certain age, they're all entrepreneurs. They're all trying to do something. It's like, it's crazy. You go into a coffee shop, they're all having conversations with each other, with other people on zoom calls, with investors, trying to raise money, trying to create a product. And I don't know if you've seen the recent exit by a guy called Morris Lamo around base 44 that was sold to Wix.

He built this tool like Lovable or Replit or, bolt. Right. And he sold it for 80 million, million dollars in six months. So he built it for six months and sold it to Wix.

Daniel Burstein: Right. Was sold to Google. And like, what was it like three years for like 30 billion or something insane like.

Asaf Raz: Crazy, right? Crazy. But the amount of non successful people that don't make it through those things in Israel is also huge. You just don't hear about them. Right? So I'd say it happens. The fact that it happened with Better Place. Right. Just goes to show that it thunder can hit once, but it can also hit twice and three times and four times.

Doesn't matter how big, strong, rich, successful you are. So it always kind of for me, it was a humbling perspective to see that even in this small world, a small country like Israel, it didn't work. And it should have, honestly. But it was too early, too ambitious. Today it's easier, right? So instead of thinking about creating better chargers, they were thinking about replacing the batteries easier, right?

So that thought is what broke everything for them. And they're still stations like that. By the way, in Israel, if you drive the roads, you'll still see those abandoned stations. In some areas in Israel you would see them, no one's using them. Of course, the cars are gone. But it was just very interesting to to talk about that for a second.

Going into, what you ask, with going into new territories, new types of conversations. The example I'm going to give you is how we went into the Australian market with Agora. We had a so we, we, we figured out that there's an opportunity in Australia. Right. We sold a couple of customers in Australia, reached out to us and we realized, wait, maybe there's a market here that we're not tapping into.

And that could be an easy way in. Right. Let's try. There's less competition. It's more of a blue ocean. Let's see what we can do. So we found a partner and we started selling it in Australia. And we called it real estate investment management. Right. And when you go to the to the United States, you have real estate investment management, but you also have something called property management, which is probably something that you would know if you live in, a rental facility that it's part of, like a condo, multi-unit housing or multifamily.

Right. You have property management that takes care of your apartment. You can call them to fix this stuff and all that. Right? When I look in Australia, when we had the conversation about Australia, Australia calls real estate investment management. They call it real estate property management. That's how they call it the investment management space. It's called property management.

We started advertising to Australia based on what we knew about the states, thinking it would work. We just duplicate what we've done. They speak English, it's going to work. And and it didn't. It completely failed. And we realized, wait, maybe we need to have another conversation with the market. So we talked to those type of customers. We talked to prospects to our park.

I realized that the terminology that we're using, it just won't work. So we changed our advertising. We changed our entire sales decks, one pagers, all the information that we share with our clients, our demos event. Right. So the demo environment was changed to provide a good story to the to the Australian market. For example, something called promissory notes.

You don't do that in the US, but you have that in Australia. And the investment market is called promissory notes. So we had to add that into our product as well. So there's a this entire shift that we had to do to fit that market. And again we realized it by failing. Right. So it requires sometimes when you look into a new market, especially when you have an existing product that has some, some, type of product market fit, you have to start looking holistically at from the top of the funnel of my messaging to how that fits into the product, to how that fits into the language, the local language.

So literally call people in the market and say, how do you say this? What we did is we build a dictionary, like all the terms that we know in the US, how do we say them in Australia, and what are the terms that we don't have in the US? They're going to be new here. And that's how we started building the narrative for the Australian market.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah, I mean marketing classes are littered with examples of that, like companies trying to go into new cultures that I didn't see even in the same culture, like, for example, in medical industries here in America, where it's like they're just using a term that doctors would use and not the patients. And that brings them to me. And again, the better place example to one thing I love about that is, is they didn't try to solve the problem the way everyone else was.

I know it didn't work, but they didn't try to solve the problem on the same level. Right? Everyone else is like, let's make a bigger battery, let's do faster charging. They came up with this whole different solution. Now it didn't work right. But sometimes some of the reasons they don't work is because the customer just doesn't understand it correctly.

Right. There's all this value creation these companies are doing right and the customer needs to perceive that value. So whether it's the right terminology or the right way to understand this new paradigm of driving, that's where marketing comes in. And so I love this last lesson you mentioned just three words, but it's exactly what we need to do every day in marketing frame or persuasion values created in companies marketing.

We frame for persuasion. You said you learned this from Scott Jonas, the VP of Global Sales and Alliances when you're at LSI. So how did you learn this from Scott?

Asaf Raz: Scott came in. I joined our site. It was a fluke of chance, right? So I was done with got it. And I met a person, the son of the CEO of that company. And I went in and I said, I want to work for you. And they said, what can you do? And I said, I don't know what you need.

And they said, we need sales, but you can sell. It was a very deep tech product, connectivity product for drones. It's a whole market niche. And and they said you can sell that type of product. This long sales cycles seems to be a very technological. You need to understand how sales processes work. But I want you to meet my head of sales.

You might be good for marketing, I don't know, because they didn't have anyone doing marketing. So I met him. We had a great conversation and he said, send me a few decks that you've created in the past that if you projects where I created decks and and it was they were pretty nice and they were pretty good today, I laughed at them, but they were pretty nice.

And I sent it and I and I sent them, I sent them the decks and he said, okay, you're hired marketing. That was my first B2B marketing job. And I sat in front of the computer. I was like, okay, how do I do this? What's next? Right. By the way, that was my first podcast. That's when I did it for the first time, because I didn't know anything.

And I remember sitting there and and I worked and I created one pagers and decks and just content and even know what I'm doing just started doing things. And through these motions, I learned, I went on HubSpot. So I taught how to use HubSpot. I was, I was, I learned how to use HubSpot and the CRM and all that.

And, and I learned how to use marketing tools and advertising and branding. And all of a sudden they built the website and one day Scott came in and he was hired as, as our VP of Global sales and alliances because he had experience in the connectivity space in the US. He was American, and he moved with his Israeli wife to Israel.

And it just it just clicked. And I remember this guy camp comes in, it was it's like, think about like, I don't know, like a George Clooney walk into the office all suited up. Like a long hair salesperson. But but you could see that he's really good. Like, he even sells internally. Really good. He sells really, really good.

And one day I sat with him and he said, Assaf, I need your help, your marketing. I need your help to to do something. And I said, do what? And he's, like, I do everything today. I give you one pagers. I give you a website to give you that. They said, no, I need your help to tell a story.

Right. And that story needs to, persuade our market that we are the choice that they need again. Why? Because there was no real competition. It was super innovative. Like we needed to tell a whole new story that no one ever told. And we needed to do it fast because we needed to close a lot of deals. It was a publicly traded company back then.

It still is a publicly traded company in Australia. And we we had to find a way to tell a really good story and I remember sitting in a room with them and I said, okay, what's the story? And he said, I don't know, let's start talking. And we had this conversation where he tried to convince me, right, why to buy the product.

And I had to listen. And then I tried to convince him, what about the product? And he listened. And out of that, we created this narrative. And then he set us. I want you to see me pitching this story. And I went on calls with him, and I went on sales meetings with him. And I saw that the power of and this is, this is the, the one really like, bottom line thing that he taught me is and it also they also say it in the book start with a no.

And they'll never split the difference. Two of my favorite books. He said, Assaf, if you can see my calls, I pitched the story, but I talked 20% of the time. However, when the customer when the prospect or the customer reaches the the sentence that I wanted him to say, I will lean into that and I will push in my advantage, that's the persuasion doesn't come from the salesperson or the marketing.

It comes from the prospect saying what you want him to say, and you would literally lead them would. The story was to lead them and guide them through their problems and guide them through their challenges and guide them through what they think is impossible. And once they hit that jackpot sentence, he would go all in and say, yes, let's talk about that for a second.

So it was really beautiful to see and that helped me build understand how to do that sales process. To understand I understood how to build a whole marketing funnel. I need to start having a conversation with the market where they lean into it, and then they get it, and then they're like, oh, you can actually solve it for me.

How? And then you start building that narrative into again, into the entire storytelling. So we build something called, connected confidence. That's how we call that was a brand. And we was the first company I talked about. I was there was a real eye thing and then before I was school. So we talked about that as well. And, and we built a brand that is connected confidence.

It's a brand that creates confidence both internally for us, but also for our customers and prospects that we can solve their challenges that they thought would never be solved. And in that case, it was drones that need to fly beyond the line of sight. So all those Amazon delivery drones, they need to fly without a pilot and stay connected to the network.

Yeah, that's really cool. Still do. By the way. They still have a great solution that solves that for those companies. Until this day, I consult with him and I speak with him about building a story, a building, a narrative or anything. Again, I'm very, as you can see, connected to revenue in the sales because that helps me build a better story on the top of the funnel.

Again, it was it was beautiful. So we put the website together in the brain story and the narrative for the sales and the sales. Dax. And all of a sudden everything changed for the company, and all of a sudden we started selling, like really selling. So that was a big lesson from, from him how marketing and sales can how it looks like when marketing and sales are actually aligned and how they have a really good conversation that helps you build good stories and good narratives, that take your prospects through that journey.

Daniel Burstein: Well, then let's talk about what makes a good story, right? Because so we would call this a marketer of our value proposition, our founder and CEO of golf. And one of the things he teaches is clarity trumps persuasion. And so when I hear you saying frame for persuasion, I don't think you're using that term persuasion, as sometimes we falsely do in marketing, right?

And marketing, sometimes we think, let's make a bunch of claims that's persuasive. Oh, we're great, we're amazing. We're all this stuff, right? Even before they know or care about us. Right. But clarity trumps persuasion. This this idea of let's create a real compelling value proposition to be clear to them. And then, like you said, take them on a journey.

Don't start shoving it down their throat until they're ready to hear it. So if you had to break it down, ask, what do you think? What makes a good story?

Asaf Raz: It's so simple. Just say what you do. To be very honest. There's so much fluff and marketing. Just say what? Just say what you do. Literally. If you say what you do and and they are like, I need that. They're going to read the rest of the story. So for example, if you build a website and you build your homepage, the homepage should clearly state what do you do and who do you solve it for?

For example, for us we're a platform of software and services, helping real estate firms grow real estate investment firms, software and services. Now, why would they want to know what it's clear for them in our market niche? That's our product market fit. That's what they're looking for right now, looking for real estate investment software, real estate investment services.

When I say that clearly in my tagline, they get it and then they can scroll down and see what what it's all about. Like, how are you going to do that? Right? So literally just say what you do. I give you a great example. When we started running ads, our best performing ad was a quote ad without a face of the customer, just his name saying the most beautiful investor portal in the market.

Literally, it's the stupidest ad I have ever build in my life. I just put a square and I quoted him without his face, just his name. And that was top performing because they want an investor portal and they want it to look beautiful for their investors. That's it. You can do a lot of other stuff. Great. But like that's the value.

That's where you're selling. Tell them what you're selling. And I think for me it's that realization that I need to cut out all the fluff and give them what they want to hear when they want to hear. It really helped me get to where I am today, to just just cut out the noise. And it's hard. It's hard to take a full story and build it into a sentence, into like five, six, eight words.

It's really, really hard, right? But you got to stay ahead of that. You got to understand that building a story is starting at be clear. And especially in these times, especially with AI and ChatGPT and for proxy and all these tools on TikTok and Instagram, whatever that is that you're working on, if they don't know what you do, don't forget about you in a second like that, they're gone.

Right? So like those first, like it's like at the hook, they call it in TikTok, for example, or Instagram, they call it the hook. Those first not today's not 30, by the way. It's like five seconds, right? If they don't get that in the first five seconds, the first few words they see they're gone. That's it. And I think it's B2B, B2C, whatever you're doing, it's very relevant to build a really good story.

Start with what you do.

Daniel Burstein: And be clear, I love it. We talked about so many different lessons, familiar stories, all these things about what it means to be a marketer from that ownership mindset to, you know, focusing on and helping sales as well. If you had to break it down, what are the key qualities of an effective marketer?

Asaf Raz: Be in the details. You can never forget where you came from. You have to be in the details. You have to know your leads. You have to know your creatives. You have to know your messaging. Every single moment that will help you become a better manager to your employees, better marketeer, and better at providing the value that is needed the most, which is revenue for the company.

That's it right? If you connect to the revenue, everything succeeds. I would say first be in the details. That's for me. It's extremely important. Hey, the second thing is understanding that nothing happens in a day, right? You have to be patient. So for example, our podcast, it took time for it to gain traction. I was patient for two years.

Some things take time. Be really, really patient. Right. And the last thing is like I said before, cut out the noise. Right. If you're struggling to tell the story, you're struggling to create messaging or you're struggling with your next move, cut out the the access meet. Stay with the core of the things that you do. So and it's really hard, but your quality should your really effective quality to be able to let go and not fall in love with those things, cut them out.

So these are the three things that I believe in. Again, very practical, very effective. And they will give you the fastest results, that you're looking for in marketing way I see it.

Daniel Burstein: Well, thank you for sharing all the stories from your career.

Asaf Raz: If I learned this on me too. Thank you so much, Daniel. Appreciate it.

Daniel Burstein: And thanks to everyone for listening.

Outro: Thank you for joining us for how I made it and marketing with Daniel Burstein. Now that you've got an inspiration for transforming yourself as a marketer, get some ideas for your next marketing campaign. From Marketing Sherpas extensive library of free case studies at Marketing sherpa.com. That's marketing rpa.com.