Client Empowerment: Be the woman behind the woman (podcast episode #110)

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My latest guest represents the perfect dichotomy of what it takes to make it in marketing.

On the one hand, the word rockstar is half the name of her company, which connotes to me, Mick Jagger strutting around on-stage crooning “I’m a man of wealth and taste.” Or perhaps for a newer generation, Adam Levine in the spotlight belting out “I got the moves like Jagger.”

But then when I went through her podcast guest application, it was filled with humble lessons like, “Be a Horse Whisperer,” “Always Gain Alignment Behind the Scenes,” and “Be the Woman Behind the Woman.”

To help us figure out how to be horse-whispering rock star marketers, I sat down with Rachel Minion, Cofounder and CEO, Rockstarr and Moon.

Rockstarr and Moon is a privately held company with $1 million in annual revenue. Minion manages a team of 10.

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Stories (with lessons) about what she made in marketing

Silence can be deafening – so, take action

You want a real eye-opener? Get diagnosed with cancer.

Minion was at Meclabs, deep in the middle of a high-stakes Verizon Executive Meeting in NYC, when she suddenly felt like she was going to puke. Her stomach was in knots, her pants felt like they shrank two sizes, and all she could think about was getting the hell out of there. She walked out, caught the next flight home, and, like any self-respecting hypochondriac with a Google Medical Degree, diagnosed herself with pregnancy.

A week and a half later, she was still miserable, so she started Googling “pregnancy and stomach pain.” Every article she read talked about how normal the discomfort was when carrying a baby. Minion began to think maybe she was just a wimp. So, Minion went to the doctor to confirm the pregnancy and get herself set up with prenatal care.

Turns out, she wasn’t pregnant. Not even close. Her white blood cell count was so high that they sent her straight to the hospital. Her appendix had burst, and she was now in a full-blown medical crisis.

Fast forward a few weeks—she had just undergone surgery and was ready to make a big career move. She’d landed a new job at EFI, the company where her husband had built a solid decade-long career. The idea of working alongside her close friends felt like hitting the jackpot.

The very afternoon she handed in her notice at Meclabs, the doctor called: “You have cancer.” Just like that, her world spun off its axis. Minion hadn’t even started her new job, and now she had to tell them she’d need time off almost immediately.

When she broke the news to HR, her boss, coworkers, and friends, the initial reaction was what you’d expect – sympathy. But that quickly turned into something worse: silence. The people she thought would be her lifeline – coworkers, long-time friends, the very folks her and her husband had known and trusted – just disappeared. The calls, texts, and emails stopped. People didn’t know how to handle it, so they just…didn’t. They avoided it, avoided her.

That’s the thing about cancer – people don’t know how to react. They’re scared, uncomfortable, and unsure of what to say or do. And in their uncertainty, they often choose to do nothing, which is just about the worst thing you can do.

That’s why she created Beyond Basic Needs, a nonprofit that provides Chemo Care Kits to cancer warriors across the United States. It’s her way of turning the silence into something meaningful. These kits are a small but powerful action anyone can take to show they care, breaking through the awkwardness with something tangible, something real.

Live loud. Be authentic.

Growing up in a family business, she learned early on that success often meant bending over backward to meet clients' demands. Her parents instilled in her a relentless work ethic, one that had her racing through the worst parts of Baltimore at 1 AM to pick up a disc of art from Under Armour for a project that had to be printed by 8 AM. At the time, it made sense – going the extra mile (or fifty) was just part of the job.

Fast forward 20 years, and Minion is running her own company. The drive to please clients was still there, but with experience came the understanding that not every demand deserves to be met, especially when it goes against what you know is right.

She had this one client who was pushing for a series of tasks that were, quite frankly, pointless. It was busy work that wouldn’t move the needle, a colossal waste of time for both her team and theirs. Worse yet, it would probably end with them frustrated at the lack of results and pointing fingers at Minion’s team.

For a while, she kept her mouth shut, going through the motions because that’s what she was trained to do – meet the client's needs, no matter what. But after one too many sleepless nights, she hit her breaking point. She realized that by staying silent, she was doing a disservice not just to her client but to herself and her team.

So, one morning, after another night of tossing and turning, she decided to speak her truth. She laid it out for the client; there was no sugarcoating, just blunt honesty. She explained why their requests were outdated and why they wouldn’t work. Then, she went a step further and showed them a better strategy – one that involved half the work but promised double the results.

That conversation was a turning point. Not only did the client respect her honesty, but they also ended up with a far more successful campaign than they originally had in mind. It reinforced a critical lesson for her: live loud and be authentic. If you know something isn't right, don’t be afraid to say it. In business – and in life – being true to yourself and speaking up when it matters is how you turn good work into great work. It’s how you build trust, deliver real value, and, ultimately, how you win.

When she talked about applying this lesson to a brand, Ticketmaster specifically, she referenced “Clarity trumps persuasion,” a well-known quote by Flint McGlaughlin (CEO of MeclabsAI, parent organization of MarketingSherpa). Minion also discussed the concept of tapping into customer motivation, an element of the Meclabs Conversion Sequence heuristic.

Firefighters are heroes, but you don’t have to be

She once had a client who could have given any firefighter a run for their money, at least in the sheer number of "fires" they created. This client had a to-do list a mile long, but the real challenge wasn’t the length – it was the constant state of emergency they seemed to live in. They’d be working on Project A, and suddenly, a new shiny object would catch their attention. “Drop everything and focus on this!” they’d say. But before they could get that done, another fire would pop up, demanding immediate attention. Then another. And another. It was chaos.

At first, Minion couldn’t understand why everything was always on fire. This client was a consultant, of all things, who specialized in time management and accountability. How could someone so skilled in managing time be so reactive and disorganized?

So, she started digging deeper. Despite their weekly priority reviews, it became clear that the client didn’t actually know what their goals were. Without a clear vision, they couldn’t identify which levers to pull to achieve those goals. They were stuck in a cycle of reacting to everything because they had no roadmap to guide them.

She realized that if they didn’t get a handle on this, they’d be running around with fire extinguishers forever. So, they sat down and had a candid conversation. She introduced them to the concept of the Big 3: the top three goals that should guide all their actions. Together, they mapped out a plan for the rest of the month that aligned with those goals.

By the end of the second month, the difference was night and day. The constant stream of emergencies slowed to a trickle, and they were finally able to put away the fire extinguishers. The client started focusing on what mattered, and the results followed.

The lesson here? Firefighters are heroes because they run toward the flames, but in business, you don’t have to be one. Not every situation is an emergency, and running around putting out fires will only burn you out in the long run. Instead, take the time to figure out what your real goals are, and create a plan that keeps you focused on them. When you do, you’ll find that most of those fires will extinguish themselves.

Lessons (with stories) from people she collaborated with

Be a horse whisperer

via Jo Mangum, VP of Coaching and Education for Anywhere Real Estate

One of the most valuable lessons Minion learned about collaboration came from working with Mangum, who envisioned revolutionizing agent education with coaching programs incorporating mindset training to help agents overcome obstacles. She knew this would be a game-changer, but she also knew she had a significant hurdle to clear: getting the legal team’s approval.

Mangum contacted Minion’s company to help her develop the strategy and marketing assets to bring her vision to life. But she kept hitting walls as she worked to push the program through the necessary channels. The legal team, the board—everyone she spoke with was saying “no.”

Most people would have gotten frustrated and given up, but not Mangum. She understood that sometimes you must be a horse whisperer, especially when facing stubborn resistance. Instead of charging straight at the problem and risking more rejection, she took a different approach. Mangum, with her charming Southern demeanor, didn’t confront the “horse” head-on. She smiled, stayed patient, and slowly gained their trust by taking small, productive steps – all while keeping her ultimate goal in sight.

Mangum approached the decision-makers from different angles, softly guiding them toward her vision without triggering their defenses. It took months of persistence, but her method worked. Gradually, she won over each board member, and by the time she was done, she had unanimous support.

Mangum’s horse-whispering skills greenlit the program, and the marketing assets they created were successfully launched.

The lesson here? When facing resistance, don’t just charge in with force. Sometimes, you must be a horse whisperer – approach the problem with patience, charm, and strategy. Guide people gently, and you’ll find that even the toughest obstacles can be overcome with a little finesse and persistence.

Always gain alignment behind the scenes

via Emily Hills, a Salesforce architect

One of the most important lessons Minion learned about collaboration and strategy came from her time at Ticketmaster. They had a massive Salesforce instance with hundreds of tickets that needed prioritization, and it felt like getting anything done was a monumental task. Minion was working with Hills to push a project for her small division to the top of the priority list.

At the time, her sales team was stuck using a hodgepodge of spreadsheets and notebooks because the Salesforce instance was only optimized for the enterprise team. There was a quick, 30-minute project that could make an immediate impact, allowing her team to start inputting their deals into the system and aligning with the company’s broader data capture goals.

But getting that project prioritized was going to be tough. The enterprise was always the focus, and her team’s needs often got lost in the shuffle. So, Hills and Minion decided to take a different approach: they would gain alignment behind the scenes before the official meeting.

They identified each member of the prioritization committee and scheduled one-on-one meetings with them ahead of time. In these pre-meetings, they presented the data, showed the simplicity of the change, and explained how this small lift would help get everyone onto one platform—Ticketmaster’s top priority for that year. They emphasized that this wasn’t just about their small division; it was about achieving the company-wide goal of data consistency and efficiency.

By the time the actual prioritization meeting came around, they had already secured buy-in from every key stakeholder. When their ticket was presented, it received immediate approval. What was originally slated to be addressed two years down the line was fast-tracked and implemented the following week. Her sales team could finally use the system, and they started capturing the data they desperately needed.

The lesson here? Don’t wait for the big meeting to make your case. Always gain alignment behind the scenes. When you take the time to build consensus and address concerns one-on-one, you turn potential roadblocks into smooth pathways. By the time you’re in the room with all the decision-makers, the battle is already decided.

Be the woman behind the woman

via Christy Renzulli, the Director of Marketing for Encore

One of the most powerful lessons she’s learned in her career is the importance of being the support that others need to succeed – being the woman behind the woman. This lesson came to life during Minion’s collaboration with Renzulli.

Renzulli brought Minion’s team in to create pitch decks for each of Encore’s divisions. It was a complex project, especially since there was little alignment between stakeholders on what each division actually did, who their target customers were, or how to present a unified message to effectively sell their services. From the start, it was clear that they needed to do more than just design some slides; they had to bring coherence to the entire company’s messaging.

As they began working together, things quickly got complicated. There was another consultant involved who would throw out off-the-wall questions, sending the conversation spiraling from one topic to another. Renzulli, who is normally decisive and forward-moving, started to waver. A recent layoff had knocked her confidence, and instead of driving decisions forward as she usually would, she began second-guessing herself.

That’s when Minion realized her role wasn’t just to create a great deck – it was to be the support Renzulli needed to regain her footing. Minion worked closely with her, not only on the technical aspects of the project but also on rebuilding her confidence. Minion encouraged her to trust her instincts, to push through the noise, and to make the decisions that would get the project done right. Together, they aligned the decks with each stakeholder’s needs, creating a unified and powerful set of presentations that clearly communicated each division’s value.

The result? The decks were a success, but more importantly, Renzulli’s leadership was back on track. Her ability to guide the project, make tough calls, and align the team didn’t go unnoticed – she was soon promoted to vice president.

The lesson here is clear: Sometimes, the most impactful thing you can do is be the woman behind the woman. Support your colleagues in ways that go beyond the task at hand. Help them find their strength, especially when they’ve lost it. When you do, you not only help them succeed but also build a lasting partnership that can lead to even greater achievements.

Discussed in this episode

Content and Communications: Tenacity, keep it simple, authenticity works (podcast episode #33)

Clarity Trumps Persuasion: 5 examples where clarity soundly beat out persuasion tactics

Internet Marketing: Landing page optimization for beginners

Innovation Leadership and Coaching: You should almost always do less than you think (podcast episode #46)

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This podcast is not about marketing – it is about the marketer. It draws its inspiration from the Flint McGlaughlin quote, “The key to transformative marketing is a transformed marketer” from the Become a Marketer-Philosopher: Create and optimize high-converting webpages free digital marketing course.

Transcript

Not ready for a listen yet? Interested in searching the conversation? No problem. Below is a rough transcript of our discussion.

Rachel Minion: So there's a flint ism in here, right? Clarity. Charms, persuasion. And if we're really clear on who we are, that should shine through in every message that we put out. Working at Ticketmaster in one of the divisions, I was running marketing for that. And I started with product marketing, and by the end of my first week, I was then running B2B marketing, B2C marketing, and B2B to see marketing and that was just in the first week.

And I'm looking at what is in front of me, and it's really fluffy and corporate. But this is ticket web. This is the down and dirty. We are in those small venues. We're dealing with promoters and bookers who, if you're not seeing a.

Four letter word, they.

Don't understand you.

Intro: Welcome to how I made it in marketing. From marketing Sherpa, we scour pitches from hundreds of creative leaders and uncover specific examples, not just trending ideas or buzzword laden schmaltz. Real world examples to help you transform yourself as a marketer. Now here's your host, the senior Director of Content and Marketing at Marketing Sherpa, Daniel Burstein, to tell you about today's guest speakers.

Daniel Burstein: Our next guest represents the perfect dichotomy of what it takes to make it in marketing. On the one hand, the word rockstar is half the name of our company, which connotes to me, Mick Jagger strutting around on stage crooning I'm a man of wealth and taste. Or perhaps for a new generation. Adam Levine in the spotlight, belting out I Got the Moves Like Jagger.

But yet when I went through her application, it was filled with humble lessons like being a horse whisperer. Always gain alignment behind the scenes and be the woman behind the woman here to help us figure out how to be a horse whisperer. Rockstar marketer is Rachel Minion, co-founder and CEO of Rockstar and Moon. Thanks for being here, Rachel.

Rachel Minion: Awesome to be here. Thanks for having me.

Daniel Burstein: I'll just take a quick look at Rachel's background so you know who I'm talking to. she was a senior research manager at MEC labs, which is the parent organization of marketing Sherpa, which also means she is my former colleague. Good to see you again, Rachel. she was a director of product marketing at Live Nation Entertainment. And for the past four years, she's been at Rockstar and Moon.

Rockstar and moon is a privately held company with $1 million in annual revenue, and minion manages a team of ten. So, Rachel, what is your day like as co-founder and CEO?

Rachel Minion: My day is awesome. I get to start off every day on my own terms. We start off with some yoga and meditation before I kick it into gear and even open up email, and I work to plan out my day so that I get time to create every day. And from there, we jump into client work, client meetings.

And then I end the day with my wrap up and plans for the next day.

Daniel Burstein: I love the positivity in that. I've asked that question a lot. I've got every day is different. I've got different things. No one just start by saying my day is awesome. I'm glad. Every day is awesome. That's great. all right, well, let's take a look at some of the lessons from the things you've made. As I've said before, like I've never worked in any other industry.

I've never been a podiatrist or an actuary or something. But I get to feel like as marketers, we get to make things and that makes it fun. so your first lesson is silence can be deafening. So take action. Tell us the story behind this lesson.

Rachel Minion: While I was at Mac Labs, I was in this high stakes Verizon executive meeting. I'm in downtown New York. It's either the Google or Adobe headquarters. It was supposed to be awesome. And all of a sudden I needed to puke and my pants didn't fit. It felt like they shrank two sizes. All I could do was think about how do I find the exit.

I can't even sit through this meeting. I'm not capable of speaking. So I walked out, caught the next flight home, and I use my Google medical degree to start figuring out what was going on. I decided I was pregnant, of course, that's what all the symptoms are when you put them in there. And a week and a half later.

Things are still wonky. And I'm googling stomach pain in pregnancy. And if you read Google, I'm a wimp. Everyone was complaining for nine months that you have the worst stomach pain in the world and it's absolutely horrible. I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to get from A to B, I don't know how I'm going to get through nine months of this, but it turns out I wasn't pregnant.

I wasn't even close. So the week and a half later, I was at a doctor and they gave me the news that my white blood cell count was through the roof. They hadn't seen it so high before, so they sent me to the hospital my appendix and burst. Google didn't tell me that. So now it's a full blown medical crisis.

And if you fast forward a few weeks, I had given my notice at Mac Labs, and I was starting a new job in product marketing and it was the company that my husband had been at previously that had moved us to Chicago. It was a huge step for me, and it was also working in the same city with a lot of the people that we've met over the last decade.

So when I had handed in my notice, I went for my follow up expecting absolutely nothing because they said, hey, no big deal, you can come along. The doctor called me back after waiting in that brick building for hours and they said, so, ma'am, you have cancer. I was like, now, nope, that's not true. I'm on Candid Camera and you can just bring it in.

It's not that funny. And just like that, my world spun off its axis. I hadn't even started the new job, and now I had to tell them I needed time off almost immediately, I broke the news to air on both sides. My boss, my coworkers, my friends, my new coworkers, and my family. And the initial reaction is exactly what you would expect sympathy.

And then it turned to silence the people that we have known and were part of our inner group that we hung out with, that we talked with, we were on text with, I was on Facebook. Everything disappeared. No more calls, no more texts, no more emails. People didn't know how to handle it, so they just didn't. They avoided that can they avoided me.

And that's really the thing about cancer. People don't know how to react. They're scared. They're comfortable. They're not sure what to say. How many times can you talk about the weather or your dog or something else? When somebody is in the battle for their life? So in their uncertainty, in most cases, I found that people do nothing. And that's just about the worst thing you can do.

But because of this experience, it led me to create Beyond basic Needs. It's a nonprofit where we provide chemo care kits to cancer warriors across the US, and it's my way of turning silence into something meaningful, because these kits are something small, but they're a powerful action that you can take to support someone who's just gotten a cancer diagnosis, who has to go through chemo, and it breaks through that awkwardness with something tangible, something real.

Daniel Burstein: So you made something good out of something bad, which is awesome. Let me ask what what should a coworker do? A marketing manager marketing leader do when one of their team has cancer? Because when I read this, I felt horrible. Like I got your podcast guest application. I saw her name. I was like, no way. A blast from the past.

That's so cool. I'm like, I can't wait to read these stories. I saw a lot of them on the stories. I'm like, great. And then I get to the story. I'm like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know that. So my excuses is I mentioned me and Rachel worked together. She worked in mech labs on the services side.

I worked and still do it. Marketing, sure, from the publishing side. So we didn't work very closely together. She did some blog post re marketing sherpa. She hosted a session in a marketing sure, but some of it was great. I loved her, but we weren't super close, so I didn't know any of this happened. But I gotta admit, even if we were like besties, I am super awkward and introverted and and work relationships are our kind of.

You don't know how deeply to go into someone's personal life. I mean, we saw that during Covid. You want to help. You're seeing people in your bedroom, like, what do you do? So a if, if, if I'm a marketing leader or if I'm just in working in marketing in my client, this happens to my client, this happens to my agency.

This happens to my one of my coworkers. Like what are your tips for for reaching out or helping someone with cancer? What should we do in that situation?

Rachel Minion: One of the things that I've learned is there's this awesome technology called giving kind. And giving kind allows us to support whether we're local or we're far away, and anyone who's undergoing something medically can go online, fill out a page, see what questions they like to have asked and what questions you shouldn't ask. They also have the ability to create meal trays so I don't have to, as the patient, have to also project manage what meal is coming on, what they tell you, where I like to eat, what are my food allergies, any of those things and we can come together and really support those and uplift them and elevate them.

The other things that we can do are send little care packages. I love receiving coloring books. Or if you say, hey, could I just take your dogs out on a walk and make your life easier? Could I send my house cleaner to your house while you're going through all of this? There, there's always something that can be done or even do you need transportation to a doctor's appointment?

And if we keep our eye on that and that there's always something tangible to do, let's just make it fun and let's take the sympathy out of how we respond and make it something where we can help elevate.

Daniel Burstein: I like that, that's nice. I use a metaphor of was not a bad metaphor. It look, look after other people in the band. Because what I'm looking at you now, there's four guitars behind your head hanging from the wall. One might be a bass, I'm not sure. one's acoustic, but some of those look electric. And as I mentioned, one half of you is being the rock star.

I think that ties into this next lesson. You said live loud, be authentic. So how have you done this in your career? What can we learn from it?

Rachel Minion: Well, just to mention the guitars, I think it was a lesson at Mac that we have to be authentic, right? Who doesn't love a guitar? Especially when it can be a business expense? Because Rockstar is my brand.

Daniel Burstein: There you go. Do you have astronaut Gear two for the moon or like, should you work right in?

Rachel Minion: I think that's the next business. Expand. So let's work on that. Yeah. So I grew up in a family business, and this means we have learned from the earliest age that you bend over backwards to meet all of your clients demands. My parents instilled in me this relentless work ethic where one night I went racing for one of my best clients down into the worst parts of Baltimore at 1 a.m. to go pick up a disc of art from Under Armor for a project that had to be printed by 8 a.m..

At the time, it made sense to go that extra mile or 50, because that was just part of my job. But fast forward 20 years and I'm running my own company. The drive to please client is still there, but with that experience came the understanding that not every demand deserves to be met, especially when it goes against everything that you know to be right.

I had one client pushing me for a series of tasks that were, quite frankly, pointless. Had I worked for another company, I would have just done it and shut up. But it's busy work that would move the needle. They needed sales, they need new leads, they needed results. And this waste of time and worse yet, they were so frustrated because there's a lack of results and they kept pointing the fingers at us for a while.

I kept my mouth completely shut. I did what I had always done, put my head down, met their needs, and after one too many sleepless nights, I hit my breaking point. I realized that by staying silent, I was doing a disservice to not just my client, but to myself and my team. It was running us ragged and not doing anything other than frustrating every person involved.

So one morning after another night of tossing and turning, I decided to speak my truth. I laid it out there for the client. It was no sugarcoating, just blunt honesty. I explained why their requests were outdated and why they wouldn't work. And then I went a step further show them a better strategy, one that involved half the work but promised double the results.

And that conversation was really a turning point for all of us. Not only did the client respect my honesty, but we ended it with a far more successful campaign than what they had originally had in mind, and it kept reinforcing that critical lesson to live loud and be authentic. If you know something isn't right, don't be afraid to say it.

It doesn't matter if it's in business or if it's in life. It's being true to yourself and speaking out when it matters. And that's how you turn good work into great work. It's how you build trust. It's how you deliver real value and ultimately how you win.

Daniel Burstein: So that's a great example for how you shape your own company in your own career. But can you give us an example of how you apply this same lesson? Live loud, be authentic to a brand. So, for example, how can a brand live loud and be authentic? I interviewed just to give you one idea, genius CMOs, Head of Content and Communications at Wacom on how I made it a marketing I.

One of her lessons was Authenticity Works and she told the story of how she had real life success stories in a marketing campaign for eHarmony. Right? That's what people really wanted to see in our eHarmony. Oh, it worked for someone else. It can work for me. These authentic stories. Let's not make something up so, you know, for you, Rachel, can you give us an example of how you manage a brand that way so the brand can live out and be authentic?

Rachel Minion: So there's a flint ism in here, right? Clarity trumps persuasion. And if we're really clear on who we are, that should shine through in every message that we put out. Working at Ticketmaster in one of the divisions, I was running marketing for them and I started with product marketing, and by the end of my first week, I was then running B2B marketing, B2C marketing, and B2B to see marketing and that was just in the first week.

And I'm looking at what is in front of me, and it's really fluffy and corporate. But this is ticket web. This is the down and dirty. We are in those small venues. We're dealing with promoters and bookers who, if you're not seeing a four letter word, they don't understand you. We're dealing with fans for the next set of bands that are coming out who are so far ahead and who know what their musical taste is, or they're going out because they are so in love with live music and you can't have something fluffy go to a promoter.

It just doesn't work. You can't have it go to a venue owner. And like how why you should come check out our technology because of this. It's like, no, hey, pay attention and here's why. And at the same time, when dealing with fans, they are so excited. And this love of live music, you want to show that passion, to show that you are on that same level.

So every message just had to resonate how we talk to them, where we talk to them, even in how they received emails and when they received emails. Because you could tell when ticket purchase has happened. And we want to make sure that we are matching that motivation. I know another Flint ism, but we want to make sure that we are speaking to them in that authentic way and hitting them in a really smart fashion for how they want to purchase, how they want to engage with a brand, and how they want to buy.

Daniel Burstein: And for listeners who are unfamiliar with the term Flint ism, Rachel is referring to Flint McLaughlin, the founder of Mac Labs. you next lesson, you mentioned firefighters are heroes, but you don't have to be. And so right away, I think when I worked at an agency. So I was putting out the fires, that pulls you away from what you wouldn't really want to do.

So how did you learn this lesson?

Rachel Minion: I had a client who could give any firefighter a run for their money, at least in the sheer number of fires that they created. This client had a mile long to do list, but the real challenge wasn't the length. My team can knock that out. It's the constant state of emergency that they lived in. We'd be working on Project suddenly boom, new shiny object, drop everything and focus on this.

Oh, okay, let's stop that. Let's pivot. Then another fire that took all the attention off of this, the previous fire, and then another. And then another. It was just absolute chaos. At first I couldn't understand why everything was always on fire. The client was a consultant of all things. They specialize in time management and accountability. So how could someone who's so skilled in managing time be this reactive and this disorganized?

So I started digging deeper. Despite all the weekly priority reviews, it became clear they had no idea what their goals were, and without some vision of where they were going, they couldn't identify. What levers do you pull to achieve their goals. And they're stuck in that cycle of reacting to everything because they had no roadmap. So the shiny object syndrome of oh wait, TikTok.

Oh wait, I need to do this. Oh wait, somebody says I should do this. And everything became a priority, which meant nothing became a priority. The only way to get a handle on this without running around with a fire extinguisher was that we had to sit down and have that candid, authentic conversation. I introduced them to the topic of the Big three, and that we were only going to do the top three goals that should guide all their actions.

We mapped out a plan for the rest of the month, and we aligned all the priorities and set our tasks by the end of the second month, the difference was night and day. The constant stream of emergencies slowed to a trickle. I no longer had texts in the middle of the night. I no longer woke up to the emergency email first thing in the morning, and we were finally able to put away the fire extinguishers.

The clients are focusing on only what mattered and the results followed. So my lesson is firefighters are heroes because they run towards the flames. But in business you don't have to be one. Not every situation is an emergency and running around putting out fires will burn you out, will burn your team out and will burn your client out.

So instead, take the time to figure out what your real goals are and create the plan that keeps you focused on them. When you do, you'll find that most of this fire should extinguish themselves.

Daniel Burstein: So what have you learned about setting up the relationship with the client on the front end of getting the pricing right, or the the statement of work or whatever it is? to avoid situations like this because you gave a great example of a great how to overcome when to come up. I mean, that's the thing a company should do is, is, you know, set some a few clear goals.

I mean, this is a problem not just between an agency and a brand, but within many brand departments themselves. But you mentioned the ultimate goal often co quote clarity trumps persuasion. Classic quote. And talking about in our communications to our customers without marketing. Try to hype them. Just help them be clear. But one place I've found that that's that's even more true is when it comes to setting up whatever that consulting or, you know, client agency relationship is, as long as we're clear as possible on the, you know, up front, we're all going to be happy on the back end.

And, you know, when there are changes or requests that are out of scope, well, that usually comes with a, you know, a greater price there. So is there anything you've learned? as you've, as you've managed your business on how to get that clarity trumps persuasion into the client relationships that you have into the statement of work or whatever you use.

Rachel Minion: It's comical. Before I was the one that was, let's go sell anybody. Let's go do this. Let's go do that. Sure, I can take on these projects. And I found that was making me nuts. It made my team nuts. We never had a scope of work. We never knew what we were doing. When we would bring in a new client.

So we changed everything in anything up top to bottom. And we started by not only implementing that. I got to meet everybody and run the onboarding, but then I got to set the expectations of, here's what's happening for your first month, and I meet with our clients on a very regular basis to make sure that we're keeping the goals and working towards only those top goals that they said we're not going to work towards.

Okay, I want X number of impressions because that doesn't result in sales. And it's that constant redirect back to what are your actual goals that have really helped on top of it? I've learned that I'm not just managing projects, I'm managing clients. You know, you start your own firm after working in numerous other corporations and you know what?

Your job is going to be, right? I make marketing happen, but that's not what I actually do. I think as a marketer, we spend our time making sure that we are as proactive as humanly possible, managing our client, managing our client expectations more than necessarily managing the projects. The projects are all doable. This isn't rocket science, right? It's just good marketing.

It's best practices, it's testing, it's bringing all that in. But if we keep in mind that we need to continue to exceed all of our client expectations, that means hitting the goals, showing them what's coming next, showing them the roadmap. It changes the game.

Daniel Burstein: And I think that's, you know, one thing we're masters at doing as marketers are we should be is communicating perceived value and perceived cost to an audience. And that's where sometimes we overlook the importance of doing that internally or to a client. And I think that's what you're talking about. Right. Like having them understand to, hey, here's the here's the actual value and cost of the things you're going to, or you're choosing to do because, one great quote I love, Todd LeBeau.

Sorry, because I can I, I've mentioned this before and I haven't mentioned it because nobody knew. But I think, you know, Todd and he used to say, you know, marketing is a little different than other parts of the business because the CEO is never like taking a shower and thinking in the morning like, hey, what if we did this JavaScript code or, you know, I mean, or whatever, did you know?

But marketing, even small businesses, big businesses, it doesn't matter. Everyone thinks they can do it. They can do that marketing. And so that's why they come along and they say, hey, Rachel, if we're going to let's do this today, everyone's doing tick tock, let's do tick tock. So I think it is that internal marketing we need to do right.

Rachel Minion: It's definitely not only the internal marketing, but where we make sure our client knows, but we also have to do that marketing to our team. They have to know what they're working towards. If our team has no idea what they're working towards, there's absolutely no point in continuing.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. Good point. well, the first half of the episode, we talk about lessons we learned from the things that Rachel has made. And in the second half, we'll talk about lessons we can learn from the people she has made them with, because that's what we get to do as marketers. We get to make things and we get to make them as people.

As Rachel mentioned, our clients and our team. but before we get into that, I should mention that the how I Made It in Marketing podcast is underwritten by MC labs. I the parent organization of marketing Sherpa. Right now you can get a free three month full scholarship to the AI Guild and a free quickstart AI productivity kit at joint Mic Labs.

i.com to help you navigate the artificial intelligence marketing revolution that's joining Mech Labs ai.com. All right, let's take a look at, the first person you mentioned. You said you learn from Joe Mangum, the VP of coaching education for anywhere real estate. You said you learned from Joe to be a horserace burner. So this is kind of the second half of that rockstar personality we're talking about.

I guess maybe this is the behind the scenes stuff. So how did you learn this from Joe?

Rachel Minion: Oh, we had this amazing opportunity to work with anywhere real estate in century 21. And the coolest part about this is we got to help influence new programs that were coming out. Joe, she envisioned revolutionizing agent education with coaching programs that incorporated mindset training that would help them overcome obstacles. So everyone knows how hard the real estate market is, especially right now.

So how do you do that? It's mindset training. And how do we make sure that we're preparing agents for all the different obstacles that they would face? She knew that this would be a game changer, but she also knew that there was a significant hurdle, a clear getting the legal team's approval. Joe contacted my company to help her develop the strategy and marketing assets to bring the vision to life, but she was hitting wall after wall after wall as she tried to push the program through all the necessary channels the legal team, the board and everyone else she spoke with said no.

Most people would have gotten frustrated and given up, but not Joe. But she understood that sometimes you have to be a horse whisperer, especially when facing stubborn resistance instead of charging straight at the problem and risking more rejection, she took the different approach. Joe with her charming southern demeanor, her big smile, chose not to confront the horse head on.

She smiled, stay patient, and slowly gain their trust by taking small, productive steps, all while keeping her ultimate goal in sight. Taking step by step closer to that goal, she approached the different decision makers from different angles. She softly guided them towards the vision without triggering any of their defenses. It took months and persistence, but her method work gradually.

She won over each board member, and by the time she was done, she'd unanimous support her horse whispering skills, greenlit the program, and the marketing assets we created were successfully launched. A lesson here when facing resistance, don't just charge in with force. Sometimes you have to be a horse whisperer. Approach the problem with patience, charm, and strategy. Guide people gently, and you'll find that even the toughest obstacles can be overcome with a little finesse and persistence.

Daniel Burstein: And that gets me thinking too, about like I was talking about that perceived value internally, the value proposition where we have to understand the different stakeholders and what matters to them. So do you have any specific examples of how you kind of like try to suss out, okay, what internal value proposition do we need here to different stakeholders?

Because I think this is true in a small company where I've seen it with like two partners, where they're on totally different pages. And you have to understand, okay, where is this person coming from? Where is that person coming from? And then it's what element of the value proposition is important to each of them. But also in big companies where, like you said, there's a board and there's different C-level executives.

And even, you know, when it comes down to competition or what's going to be on the home page and what matters to each vendor. So I wonder if you have any experience or any examples of, okay, how do we formulate an internal value proposition? Make sure each stakeholder gets the thing they want and moves the project forward.

Rachel Minion: That was actually my job at Mac Labs to make sure that one of our partners, we knew what each of them wanted on that board. We knew what parts were important to them and what parts weren't important. It was always having a meeting behind the meeting to make sure that we were aligned and really clear on how do we take our next step forward, and what is everyone going to be happy with?

What is their ultimate goal, and are you willing to sacrifice X, Y and Z? And I built out a model to know how that would work, laid it out, and with puzzle pieces, we forged a path forward.

Daniel Burstein: You mentioned the meeting behind the meeting. Your next lesson is always gain alignment behind the scenes. You said you learned this from Emily Hills, a Salesforce architect, and I think this was at your time at Ticketmaster.

Rachel Minion: If this was a Ticketmaster, Ticketmaster had the biggest installation of Salesforce you can imagine. And with Salesforce, you have Salesforce Architects and you have the people who build and you have the people who get to organize all the requests and figure out what everything's going to take. And then write the requirements and it's not a small CRM and it's not a small company.

We had hundreds of tickets that all needed prioritization, and that was every week and felt and getting anything done. It's a monumental task because the projects that they would take on would be for the biggest clients or the biggest divisions. It wasn't necessarily the smallest. I worked with Emily to be able to push a project from my small division to the top of the priority list.

At the time, my sales team was stuck using a hodgepodge of spreadsheets and notebooks because the Salesforce instance, it was optimized for that enterprise team, not a really small team working with small venues. There was a quick 30 minute project that could make an immediate impact, and it would allow my team to start inputting their deals into the system.

It would also align with the company's broader data capture goals, because if my team isn't entering information in the system, where's the visibility? How would they know if they're succeeding or failing? How would we know what's coming down the pipeline? Do we need to hire more people? do we need to start running ads? Do we need to put more money towards marketing?

Without the data, we have no idea. But to get a project prioritized, even a 30 minute project, it was going to be impossible. The enterprise was always the focus and our needs were often get lost in the shuffle. So Emily and I took a different approach. We gained alignment behind the scenes. Before the official meeting, we identified each member of the prioritization Committee.

We scheduled one on one meetings with them, and in these pre meetings we showed the data, showed the simplicity of the change and explained how this small lift would get everyone onto the platform. And that was Ticketmaster's top priority for the year. We emphasize that this wasn't just about the small division. It's about achieving the companywide goal of data consistency, efficiency and we had to repeat it 100 times.

But finally they saw that this was a ticket that could actually be done. So by the time the actual prioritization meeting came around, we already had buy in from every key stakeholder. When our ticket was presented, it received immediate approval. There were no pushbacks. Something that was slated to be two plus years down the line was fast tracked and implemented.

The next week, my sales team could finally use the system, and we started capturing the data that we desperately need. It. So the big lesson here is don't wait for the big meeting to make your case. Always get your alignment behind the scenes. Take the time to build consensus. Address the concerns one on one, and turn those potential roadblocks in as new pathways.

And by the time you're in the room with all decision makers that that was already decided.

Daniel Burstein: So that was a great example of how to get a thing done. But how could you give us an example of how you found out the right thing to get done, and maybe this story or another one, because you were dead set on this is the right thing. And for example, when I interviewed Jake Watts, the vice president of marketing at PDI, one of his lessons was, you don't need to go looking for good ideas.

They're already in your organization. And he told the story of building a new pricing models. And, you know, it's not like you came in with brilliant new ideas. The ideas were there, you just implemented them. And so in your example too, it's like, okay, you have that right idea, but you push so hard to implement it. How do you get that right idea to begin with?

Rachel Minion: I did interviews. I had a corporate mandate that all my information had to be in Salesforce, and I looked in Salesforce and there was nothing from anyone in my division, the sales team, not inputting a single thing. And so I went to each of the sales reps. Okay, guys, what's going on? Oh, well, I can't log in because of this or they decided not to pay for a license for that or X, Y and Z.

And so I started working on getting the little things prioritized a license we can fix, not having the access on your phone. We can fix small things like that. And then they started logging into the system and realized it didn't matter. They couldn't input a single client, and if you can't input a single client, then that is the biggest roadblock that there could be.

And that requires escalation licenses and things can be fixed that easy. It's just admin. But when it comes to I cannot input a client, I cannot input a prospect I like. This isn't built for us. That's where we have to figure out not only what that problem is, but then dig into the requirements as to what will it actually take to solve it.

I'm not asking for solve 3.0, I just need something that's viable enough so that we can get started and then we can see with use. How do we then test and make sure that the data is getting in the right way, that we're using it the right way, that we're actually capturing things that matter? It's all a test.

Daniel Burstein: Absolutely. Everything's a test. here's another example of working behind the scenes. Be the woman behind the woman. You said then this from Christy Rosalie, the director of marketing for encore. So how are you? The woman behind Christy?

Rachel Minion: I worked with Christy previously, and Christy was one of my phenomenal friends who is a strong, powerful leader. She brought us in to help create pitch decks for each of our course division. It was a really complex project because there was zero alignment between stakeholders on what the division actually did, who their target customers were, how to present a unified message that would effectively sell some one or all of their services to clients.

It wasn't vaporware, but it was along those lines because each person you spoke with on a sales team versus an operations team said the company did vastly different things. So from the start, it's clear we need to do a lot more than just design some pretty slides. We need to bring coherence to the company's entire messaging across every division.

As we started working together, things got complicated. There was another consultant involved who would throw out the most off the wall questions. It would take that conversation spiraling from one topic to another topic to another topic. I wanted to bang my head against the wall at times, and Christy, who's normally decisive, she knows where she wants to go.

She sees the vision for the whole project. She started to waver. A recent layoff knocked her confidence and instead of driving those decisions forward as she usually would, she started second guessing herself and following down this rabbit hole of spiral that led to no decision. That's when I realized my role wasn't actually to create a deck. It was to be the support that Christy needed to gain and her following.

I worked closely with her not only on the technical aspects of the project, but to help rebuild her confidence. I encourage you to trust your instincts. We can test anything. We can put anything on the slide. Let's go get some reaction. Let's make a decision. Let's move it forward. And together we aligned those decks with every single stakeholders needs.

We create a unified and powerful set of presentations that not only communicated the division's value, but communicated her value the depth to a success. But more importantly, Chris's leadership was back on track. Her ability to guide the project, make those tough calls, and align the team didn't go unnoticed, and she was soon promoted to vice president. The lesson here is clear sometimes the most impactful thing you can do is be the woman behind the woman.

Support your colleagues in ways that go well beyond the task at hand. Help them find their strength, especially when they've lost it. When you do, you not only help them succeed, but to build a lasting partnership that can lead to even greater achievements.

Daniel Burstein: What do you do to build a relationship with your clients as people? Because something that strikes me in a lot of these conversations you've had is you're not talking about these accounts and stuff like this, your time you've talked a lot about, like, it's these people that you're shepherding. And one thing I know about you is you're a real people person.

That's not something I like, but it's harder now. Like we're remote. It's not like the Mad Men days where we all have the 5:00 martini or go play golf or whatever they used to do, you know? so what do you do? What have you figured out on how to build a relationship with actual the real people that you're working with on the client side, working remotely, as we often are.

Rachel Minion: I believe in the power of small talk. I want to know, how is your weekend? What are you doing tonight? Anything fun? Are you married? Are you single or are you? Whatever. I'm not interested in having a working relationship that's sterile. I'd rather you get to know about me and my world. And I get to know about you.

Because that gives me more insight on why I'm working for you and why I'm pushing myself on. Why, quite frankly, you want to hit $15 million in sales this year? Great. Let's go do it now. That personal connection is going to give me the rah rah to not only beat your goal, but to exceed it.

Daniel Burstein: I so we've talked about many different things, what it means to be a marketer from being a rock star, living out loud to being the woman behind the woman. So if you had to break it down, what are the key qualities of an effective marketer?

Rachel Minion: I think the first quality is you just have to be authentic. You have to be yourself the second you cannot be scared to speak your mind. We're creatives. We have off the wall ideas and sometimes they sound really friggin weird and I know it, I get it, but you never know when you're going to hit lightning in a bottle and you start speaking.

That idea out loud, and it just jives with every person in the room. And that thing takes a life of its own, creates its own campaign, and then you get to go rock that. And I think the last part of what I believe a marketer should be is always be testing, because we're making things. We're creating things. We may think that this is the best idea in the world, but when we get the data around it, it may absolutely suck and the data is going to tell us, did we get a winner or did we get an absolute loser?

And what do we need to do from there? And if we're testing, then it's also job security. Let's be really clear. Your website's never done. Your emails are never done. This is an A set it and forget it because consumer behavior changes, buying behavior changes. And it should always be optimized. So just when we think we have the highest converting website we can get, do we.

Now let's test it.

Daniel Burstein: And then I think we also become a trusted source for our clients, because then we're giving them information about their customers that they need. Right. It's not just did this thing work or not. It's like, oh, here's what we're learning about your customers right.

Rachel Minion: And making them a lot of money at the same time.

Daniel Burstein: I like that, making them a lot of money at the same time. Well thank you Rachel. It was so great catching up with you. Thanks for letting me pick your brain and go through your career and see what we can learn from you.

Rachel Minion: Oh thank you so much. I'm so grateful.

Daniel Burstein: And thanks to everyone for listening.

Outro: Thank you for joining us for how I made it and marketing with Daniel Burstein. Now that you've got an inspiration for transforming yourself as a marketer, get some ideas for your next marketing campaign. From Marketing Sherpas extensive library of free case studies at Marketing sherpa.com. That's marketing rpa.com.