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SUMMARY:
I talked to Tim Peters, CMO, Enghouse Systems, on episode #113 of How I Made It In Marketing. Listen now to hear Peters discuss mastering global tech markets, tailoring your strategy, and marketing planning. |
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"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight, for a very long time, of the shore."
That quote is from Nobel Prize winning novelist André Gide. And I think there is a great lesson for marketers here.
For 25 years, MarketingSherpa has published case study articles. And sometimes when I talk to marketers, they are so myopically focused on just the case studies from their industry.
We’re an ideas profession. And sometimes to get the best ideas you have to step away from the familiar…including your industry.
Which is why I was intrigued by a story in a recent podcast guest application, about a tech industry leader who learned the transformative power of digital marketing by pivoting away from the tech world for a bit to run a charity.
To hear that story, along with many more lesson-filled stories, I sat down with Tim Peters, the CMO of Enghouse Systems.
Enghouse Systems is a public company, founded in 1984, that trades on the Toronto Stock Exchange. It reported $454 million in revenue for fiscal year 2023. Peters manages a team of 52 marketing professionals at Enghouse.
Listen to the full episode using this embedded player or by clicking through to your preferred audio streaming service using the links below it.
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After running a successful charity, the Canadian Hero Fund, which Peters founded to support military families, he decided to pivot back into the tech world. What Peters learned from building a brand from the ground up with limited resources became the cornerstone of his approach in the corporate world.
This experience taught him the importance of leveraging digital platforms to amplify a message and create a strong community around a cause, a lesson that has driven many of his successful marketing campaigns in the tech industry.
Peters faced the challenge of introducing a telehealth product to a very different market – the Middle East. Enghouse’s entry into Saudia Arabia and the United Arab Emirates highlighted the need for deep cultural understanding and adaptability. This experience led to a complete overhaul of their approach, resulting in a successful localized campaign that focused on having an in-country, face-to-face presence, something Peters said was not as important in other markets.
During his time in private equity, Peters was involved in the acquisition of several companies. One of the biggest challenges was managing the human aspect – keeping the acquired teams motivated and aligned with their vision. During one critical acquisition, a transparent conversation with the leadership team broke down barriers, paving the way for a successful integration
via Mike Hennessy
Hennessy was the first VP of Marketing Peters ever worked for, and he gave Peters his first break in the marketing industry. Under his mentorship, Peters learned the importance of strategic thinking and creativity. Hennessy taught him how to develop comprehensive marketing plans that not only captured attention but also drove measurable results. His guidance was instrumental in shaping his foundational approach to marketing and instilling a passion for innovative solutions.
via Angie Sabatino
Sabatino has been an incredible asset throughout his career, starting as an intern over 15 years ago, and has now been with Peters at four different companies – and he can proudly say she is now serving as a director of marketing at a leading PE-backed software company. Her dedication, adaptability, and relentless pursuit of excellence have been truly inspiring. Sabatino taught him the value of nurturing talent and fostering a collaborative team environment.
Watching her grow from an intern to a leadership role reinforced the importance of investing in people and creating opportunities for growth within the team.
via Vince Mifsud
Mifsud, the President of his current company, hired Peters and gave him his break to lead marketing at a public company. With his background as a former CFO, Mifsud provided a unique lens on the importance of aligning marketing strategies with profitability and overall business goals. His guidance has been instrumental in shaping Peters’ approach to leading a marketing department with a strong focus on financial accountability and strategic vision.
Customer-First Marketing: Every click is a wish (podcast episode #85)
CMO-CPO Collaboration: Bridge Marketing and Product for collaborative growth (podcast episode #95)
Marketing: High growth can be excruciating (podcast episode #64)
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This podcast is not about marketing – it is about the marketer. It draws its inspiration from the Flint McGlaughlin quote, “The key to transformative marketing is a transformed marketer” from the Become a Marketer-Philosopher: Create and optimize high-converting webpages free digital marketing course.
Not ready for a listen yet? Interested in searching the conversation? No problem. Below is a rough transcript of our discussion.
Tim Peters: Our product marketing team, which is that bridge for us between marketing and product management, played a huge role in doing that. Market research. And then we did the same thing. We had our product marketing folks on the ground, you know, right there trying to understand the market and then communicating that back to both the product and the sales and marketing go to market teams.
So if you can, you know, if you can immerse yourself and get there and meet with partners, meet with other folks in the ecosystem that may not be competitors, I highly recommend it. You'll you'll learn. You'll learn more there and it will accelerate your success. I think quite a bit. If you can get on the ground and, and just really understand things versus, you know, trying to stay back at headquarters and do it through, you know, online research.
I mean, if you're a global company.
Intro: Welcome to how I made it in marketing from marketing Sherpa, we scour pitches from hundreds of creative leaders and uncover specific examples, not just trending ideas or buzzword laden schmaltz real world examples to help you transform yourself as a marketer. Now here's your host, the senior Director of Content and Marketing at Marketing Sherpa, Daniel Burstein, to tell you about today's guest.
Tim Peters: And.
Daniel Burstein: This one doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight for a very long time of the shore. That quote is from Nobel Prize winning novelist Andre Zeid. And I think there's a great lesson for marketers here. For 25 years, marketing Group has published case study articles. And sometimes when I talk to marketers, they are so myopically focused on just the case studies from their industry.
Look, we're an ideas profession and sometimes you get the best ideas. You have to step away from the familiar, away from your industry. Which is why I love this story. In a recent podcast, guest Application about a tech industry leader who learned the transformative power of digital marketing by pivoting away from the tech world, or a bit to run a charity.
We'll hear that story, along with many more lesson filled stories from my next guest, Tim Peters, the CMO of Edge Health Systems. Thanks for joining me, Tim.
Tim Peters: Hi, Daniel. Great to be here.
Daniel Burstein: Now let's take a quick look at Tim's background so you understand who I'm talking to. He started his career very early on. He was a personal trainer at Bally Total Fitness. I think there's some marketing going on there. We might. Might go back into the past, see what we can learn from that. But he's also had many tech roles.
I mentioned he's been head of global demand generation at Scribble Live. Vice president of global marketing and revenue operations at Wroxham. And for the past four years, Tim has been at edge. Health and Health Systems is a public company founded in 1984 that trades on the Toronto Stock Exchange. It reported $454 million in revenue for fiscal year 2023.
And Tim manages a team of 52 at house. So, Tim, give us a sense. What is your day like as a global marketing leader?
Tim Peters: Thanks, Daniel. Yeah. Intro systems were a provider of vertical market software, and we're a global company in over 100 countries. So you can imagine those type of roles. Dashboards have to be your best friend. And so that's generally where I like to start my day. Many of my folks have been busy for, for hours, you know, on my team before, I plug in normally based in North America.
And so number one thing I'm doing is, looking at dashboards, checking in with my team, you know, catching up with sales, seeing what's happened overnight, being a global company, there can be a lot of things that have happened, you know, after, business closes in North America. And so dashboards and, strong cup of coffee are usually the way I like to start my morning.
Daniel Burstein: Hopefully a strong dashboard to, not just the coffee strong. The dashboard strong to you. All right, well, let's take a look at some lessons you've learned from your career. The first one I mentioned in the opening. You say to leverage digital platforms to build strong communities and amplify your message, and you actually learn this outside of the tech industry.
So how did you learn this lesson?
Tim Peters: You know, Daniel, I initially started my career in, gosh, that goes way back when. You mentioned, personal training at Bally Total Fitness is clearly, a long time ago now. But by my initial career, was in sales. And so, that was both in more traditional industries but also in technology as well. And it was a bit of a tough time to to break in and break into to marketing, back then.
And so for myself, I had founded a charity, as you mentioned, Canadian Hero Fund, that supports military families. And, you know, we did everything on a volunteer basis. So we were, you know, rubbing nickels together to try and get our name out there. And it led to a lot of, you know, creativity being needed. And so, you know, at that time, we had very limited funds, and that's where I discovered the power of, digital marketing and what you could do with, tools like Google AdWords and Bing and, social media advertising as well.
And so, again, back then, our funds were very limited, and I was even new to marketing myself coming up, more of, you know, in a sales role previously in my career. And, gosh, just the power back then of being able to reach folks through digital marketing. This is when, you know, Facebook was being founded and launching and just the power to connect with your your right folks, with your advocates and your community was was just, incredible.
And, you know, those are lessons both just in terms of, always being scrappy and and acting like a startup. You know, I keep that mindset today, even though I'm at a public company and also, you know, trying to stay on top of the latest tools and innovation, which at the time was digital marketing through channels like Facebook and Google AdWords.
You know, really are, I think, important to stay on top of, you know, the latest technologies like that.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. I mean, today it might be AI, right? But that gives me it brings up a question. So when it comes to marketing and digital marketing, advertising and digital marketing was true back then, probably even more so. It's true today still. The hard thing is perceived value. I feel like and so like, especially for a nonprofit, how did you help people perceive the value of that nonprofit?
Right. Because things like print or if you had the bigger budgets for that, like right away, there's instant credibility. If you're just talking about Facebook, well, you don't know what's what's going on there. And so, for example, I interviewed, Gary Stein. He was a CMO, a virtuoso on the how I Made It marketing podcast. And one of the lessons he learned from someone he collaborated with was every click as a wish.
They love it. He told the story of how, you know, people click right, they have an expectation, and then you can't just, you know, take them from an ad to a page and just disappoint them or do okay, right. You really you really got to wow them, right? That's a wish. Make that wish come true for them. And so it just kind of brings back to that topic I was asking about, okay, there's this perceived value we have.
And it's it's harder to perceive that value in the digital channel, whether that's for nonprofit, whether that's for a tech company, but especially a nonprofit where it doesn't necessarily deliver that tangible product. You don't even after you purchase, you have that tangible property. And so I wonder if there was anything you learned in using digital marketing, especially for a nonprofit, on how you can communicate that perceived value through digital channels?
Tim Peters: Yeah, definitely. It's such an interesting, interesting area to discuss. You have that digital component that maybe initial can initially drive traffic to do whatever you're involved with, but you have to, you know, deliver on that promise as well. And for us, content was key. So when we were able to drive those initial clicks, for example, we again, it was more sweat equity than dollars.
Invested a lot of time in creating powerful, incredible content and stories that folks could, you know, then visit and watch and see when they actually visited our website. So for us, there's definitely a lot of video content. In our case, we were supporting military families. And so stories about maybe, how we were supporting military families.
In our case, it was a lot of academic scholarships. And so folks would become immersed in the content we were creating and get a sense of how their potential donation could have an impact and, and support, the very worthwhile cause, like the one we were we were working on.
Daniel Burstein: Great health stories. So we mentioned and health systems, 100 countries operate in, and I wonder what kind of lessons we can learn about operating in those different countries. One thing you mentioned is adapt your marketing to reflect cultural nuances for global success. So do you have an example of how you've done this?
Tim Peters: Yeah, it's definitely, put some puts a lot of stress on the marketing team. Right. If you can imagine trying to operate in 100 countries, some of those are through partners. But imagine all the different language is time zones. And so other global marketers out there, there's many different go to market motions as well. Some countries or businesses in B2B like to buy direct through channel.
Some folks are okay through, learning more about products through digital channels. Others like to, meet more face to face at trade shows. And so definitely you know, it's been a really interesting learning experience for myself as we've, you know, for example, started to, making inroads more in the Middle East. And so we have just some amazing customers there now in the United Arab Emirates, in the UAE, in Saudi Arabia, for example.
But we had to learn, you know, they are our customer and we have to follow their lead in terms of how they would like to learn about businesses, learn about various products. And so for us, being a North American headquartered company, definitely was a little bit different. And we learned the importance, for example, with our, video telemedicine solution, that folks really wanted us to have a presence there to have an office, to have employees there to make it, you know, so they felt we were there for the long term, for the best experience, in this case, of their hospitals and in their health care system.
And so, you know, that took us a while just to learn those type of nuances, to make sure we had people there that we understood their local in our case, you know, the health care system, the regulations they have, and then, really promote what mattered to them in our marketing. And it definitely was quite a lot different than, you know, more a direct approach, say, in North America, we wanted to be there, be a trade shows, spend a lot of time discussing our expertise in the area and really being there in person and and localizing all of our content.
And that seemed to make a real difference when, the various, organizations that we were speaking to, you, knew we were there for the long term and wanted to be a partner with them to support their, in this case, their health care system. With our telemedicine solutions.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. You know, I mean, so it's very true culturally, internationally and globally. But I worked in software industry early in my career. And part of it too was, you know, telling customers that you fluently speak their language in terms of, okay, we understand this industry. So that's a great lesson, even if you're listening and you're like, well, I don't operate globally.
Like I don't have to understand those cultural touchstones. You have to understand it for an industry. Yeah. I mean, you need to make sure you serve an industry. So from your experience, how much of that adapting to the market is marketing, messaging and communication, which maybe kind of having that office there is and how much is it the actual product changes and innovation to, product to serve an industry, you know, or, or a region differently than it would, let's say, here in North America?
Because, for example, when I interviewed Tiffany Donald Kwan, the CMO of amplitude, on how I made it marketing, one of her lessons was bridge marketing. And product for collaborative growth, and she felt that that was just such a key role of a marketer. And she actually told the story of physically moving from the marketing building to the product building because it was so important for her to do that.
So I wonder for you, Tim, when you talk about moving into new market and understanding that culturally, obviously there's language, there's marketing, there's there's that go to markets strategy, there's a channels, all of that's important. What role as a marketer in a global company do you take in making sure that product is right for that region or for that country?
Tim Peters: Yeah. Gosh. Are the product marketing function at Chelsea know in that case, you know, played a huge role in this really understanding the markets, especially when you're working in regulated industries to understand what's going to be table stakes, to just operate there and and have success. That can vary greatly from, you know, not just region to region, but by country to country or in some cases, you know, state to state, province by province, emirate to emirate.
And so a lot of those can also have, you know, different governing bodies. And so our product marketing team, which is that bridge for us between marketing and product management, played a huge role in doing that. Market research. And then we did the same thing. We had our product marketing folks on the ground, you know, right there trying to understand the market and then communicating that back to both the product and the sales and marketing go to market teams.
So if you can, you know, if you can immerse yourself and get there and meet with partners, meet with other folks in the ecosystem that may not be competitors. Highly recommended. You'll you'll learn you'll learn more there, and it'll accelerate your success. I think quite a bit if you can get on the ground and and just really understand things versus, you know, trying to stay back at headquarters and do it through, you know, online research, you know, if you're a global company.
So yeah, great lesson. You know, get on the ground, get there. And then on on the cultural side. Right. It's the little things. So we had great, you know, customers that have become friends and they teach you the little things too, right. Of what what hand maybe you should be eating with, right. Or different things like that and just saves you from, you know, it's a respect thing to understand the local culture and the nuances.
And so even those things, by being on the ground just sets you up for success. And, you know, putting the right foot forward and being respectful of local cultures, when you are trying to do international business.
Daniel Burstein: That's fantastic. There is something about going that we, I went to, it's actually right before Covid went to a business where we're doing a training in Toronto, actually. And one of the things that struck me so funny, it was flying through Boston and how the TSA treated us. It was like, oh God, come on. Everything they got moving.
And then I got to Toronto and we got this wonderful aisle, airport on an island right in the middle of Toronto, like, you know, like, and I go there, you know, and I'm ready for that to. And they're just gonna helping us out, and they're so friendly and they're so helpful. It was like, such a difference, too.
I noticed when we actually spoke in that company of like, you know, versus like having to, like almost like prove yourself. Everyone's like looking ready to shoot you down or they're coming in and welcoming and helpful and, and so that's one thing I love about the Canadian culture, the Toronto culture.
Tim Peters: That's great. I'm glad my fellow Canadians are, keeping our polite international standards, you know, are living that, you know, living that, in their day to day life. I'm glad you had a good experience.
Daniel Burstein: We can learn from that. And in other places. Important. So, you know, we talk about global markets, but tech companies, big, big, companies, global companies, M&A is a huge part of it. Right. And so having to understand the different cultures there for many tech companies is very acquisitive. You said foster trust and cooperation through transparent communication and M&A.
So how did you do that.
Tim Peters: Yeah in my previous roles I I've been, you know, in the head of marketing roles of companies that were in the private equity space where you're often doing an industry role up, which I think is becoming more and more, a channel, for growth. And when you look at the statistics in terms of number of employees, private equity funds, now, you know, have under under management, it's becoming more and more of, you know, a mainstay in the world of technology and, and in software.
And so, you know, during my time at a previous company, I think over, gosh, over maybe 18 months, we, we, we acquired and integrated over ten, ten businesses and, you know, hundreds of employees. And so definitely some lessons learned there of the right way and, you know, maybe wrong way of how to, really partner and make sure that these acquisitions are a success and that employees feel welcome and that you start to realize the the positive aspects of bringing organizations together.
There is definitely, you know, in earlier when I had just, started in the world of private equity, where, one company we had acquired, the CEO was really struggling. We were having integration meetings and just, just didn't seem like he was, you know, really, really in it. Right? And engaging with the team. And so, you know, one thing I learned was the importance of, you know, maybe having some one on one conversations, really trying to build that personal relationship and trust in this case, you know, the CEO eventually opened up to me that, you know, this was just so overwhelming for them.
They were a small, sort of very tight knit company. They were, you know, I think 12 or, 13 years old. And they almost of the company had been together for, for that time period. And so, gosh, to be acquired by a much larger company was just a bit overwhelming for them. And so once I understood that and how folks were feeling, we were able to, you know, do a few things differently, like explaining why things were happening better.
Maybe, adjust the pace of where certain things were happening. And so I think that was great in this case that the CEO felt heard, he was able to share, some of the feedback and the pulse of his team. And so, you know, fast forward six months later. I don't think anyone from that company had actually, you know, left.
They were enjoying themselves. They were part of a bigger company with more resources to, expand their products globally and ended up working out. But, it's important to, build those relationships with, with folks in that M&A environment. And, make people feel sure they feel comfortable if something is going from, you know, green to, to yellow or red, that they feel comfortable, they can speak up and, and Dulin you know, in an environment where they don't feel like they're going to, you know, be penalized that, that there, that those, that inputs are going to be incorporated and respected.
And so, for me, I, I definitely know if I'm ever, involved with an acquisition, the more time I can spend during due diligence or right after to get to know the team and build those relationships and, you know, Jeff definitely helps. So I highly recommend trying to get to know the folks you're going to be working with.
If you're working for a company that's acquisitive.
Daniel Burstein: So that communication comment is so important and it's part of our role in marketing. But I also wonder, just from like a business leadership perspective, how much control do you give the acquire? Read in an integration? Because like for example, when I interviewed, on Jason Landis, Vice President marketing from Austin and how I mean it marketing, one of her lessons was change.
Even good change is hard, and everyone wants to be able to control or at least influence the change in their lives. And she was telling the story of coming into the organization as a VP of marketing. Right. And but I think I was thinking like, boy, you know, when when I read your story, this is even like ten x or 100 x for a founder in an acquisition.
So, I mean, when you think of it, this is like the first time they've been acquired this founder, they've been building this business. You know, there's always a thought, I'm sure, of an exit strategy. Yeah. But you know, they think of the money but they don't think of the like, wow, this is both my baby and and this kind of part of the world I control.
And so I wonder obviously like you are the acquiring entity. You have a certain plan for how you're going to, you know, use that company. But you know, how do you balance like what, what amount of control you can give that acquire?
Tim Peters: Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting question. Daniel and I may I may put on the, the, the acquired company CEO hat maybe to, to you know, to respond. And so, gosh, if you are in that position where you are looking to, to sell, sell your company or you're a marketer and on the leadership team of a company, that may be going, through a potential acquisition, definitely know who you're partnering with and who you're getting involved with, because there are different approaches to that question.
Some acquirers will, you know, let you run independently, or maybe that's for a year. Some folks, some organizations may want to integrate you completely. And so your brand is retired, the product names are retired, and you're fully being integrated into the company. The marketing folks go into the the marketing organization of the parent company. And so ask those questions, and really feel comfortable with the answers when you are, you know, if you are looking to potentially, you know, sell, sell your, sell your business.
And, there are those different, I think the positive things that there are those different entities that, operate, different business models where some will again, let you run independently. Some are, you know, integrating everyone, you know, very quickly within a month of, of buying a business. And so, I there are, to little validity to those different business models, I think.
Right. But, you know, you have to has the owner of the business or the CEO, you know, you have to do what's right for your company and your employees and, you know, know that there are different options out there depending on what you want to do with the business, how long maybe the owners want to, to stay involved, and those type of things.
So definitely do your due diligence on the potential, acquirer.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. Due diligence works two ways. And, you know, it's probably all different for a public company, but for a private company, you know, hey, it's not just about the number. Those big numbers, like, nice, but like you said, what's going to happen after that? That contract goes on after the closing. All right. Well, we talked about some lessons from some of the stories, Tim has made in his career.
In the second half of the episode, we're going to talk about lessons from some of the people he made those things with. But first, I should mention that the How I Made It in Marketing podcast is underwritten by Meek Labs. I the parent organization of marketing. Sure, but you can build a new artificial intelligence strategy or optimize your current AI strategy with an AI quick Win intensive from Mech Labs.
Learn more at intensivist. Mech labs.com. That's intensives dot mech labs, ai.com. All right, let's take a look at some lessons we can learn from some of the people you collaborated with throughout your career. We were first lesson you mentioned embrace strategic thinking and creativity to drive measurable marketing outcomes. And you learned this from Mike Hennessy. How do you learn this from Mike?
Tim Peters: So Mike Hennessy was my my first ever, you know, VP of marketing or boss in the world of marketing. As I mentioned a bit earlier on the podcast, I started my career in sales, found a way to bridge into marketing through some of the work I did at Canadian Hero Fund, a charity where I got my first break in digital marketing and, you know, working with Mike was just great.
He taught me those marketing fundamentals, especially, you know, making sure you're tying things back to, to business value and that you're really marketing, the work you're doing internally as well. So the leadership team knows how you're, you know, bringing value to the actual, business itself. And so those are some great, foundational years with Mike.
And he's actually in terms of, you know, a great thing for us, marketeers, too. Here. He's actually, the CEO of it, a company now, a fairly large company, in, in Toronto, Canada. And so, yeah, I think we all need those, those mentors, especially when we're first starting off. And to have someone who put the time and invested in me in those marketing fundamentals set my career off, you know, on a, on a really exciting path.
And I'm definitely grateful for that. If he's, he's listening to the pod, I definitely am a coffee and a big thank you.
Daniel Burstein: Well, thank you, Mike. And, so when we talk about those marketing fundamentals, I wonder, you know, we talk about all these strategic planning things. How much is it like, how much would you say percentage wise or something? I don't know that you plan ahead and you know how your year or quarter or whatever is going to go and how much do you pivot based on the opportunities you see, either in the macroeconomic environment or in your specific marketplace?
And one of the reasons I ask is because I saw part of your training, you are like certified in improv. And I thought like, that is like such good training for marketers to have. So I wonder if there's anything you learned in that improv training that you've then been able to use as you've run marketing organizations? Because I feel like we have our, you know, planning our yearly quarterly whatever planning.
And then, my gosh, you know, whatever happens, Covid happens, rate cuts happen, whatever happens in a specific, you know, client or acquisition or industry, all these things happen. So I wonder how you balance that between the planning between pivoting and if there's anything you learn from improv that kind of help you do that?
Tim Peters: Yeah, yeah. Great question. And it's really interesting how those two things can, can can be related. Again, going back from Mike Hennessy and I and I, and I do this today, you know, almost 20 years later, I will still have an annual marketing plan and that's used in kick offs with the sales team. You know, items that we, you know, definitely feel strongly that are going to be used for that year.
It could be some of the big bets that you're on the hook for. Might be even big trade shows that are, you know, the those those maybe the, the big industry events that, you know, you're definitely going to be doing. And I see layers around thought leadership or themes or product launches that are definitely going to happen that stay in there as well.
But, you know, just like improv, you have to be ready for, you know, be ready for anything. And, and and so definitely we will have, quarterly updates on those plans, in terms of what we do now. So maybe some of our initiatives aren't working as well. Some things are even products that we have are are working better than others.
And so with, the case adventures, with our sales partners, we were always in constant collaboration. And we'll update those plans on a quarterly basis. And from a, you know, a PR standpoint as well, we're always observing for, you know, maybe something we could provide some thought leadership or commentary on, on a, on a regular basis where we're sort of scanning the headlines as well.
So, yeah, maybe in terms of improv, right, that that's a good example where you've got to be ready to, use those improv improvizational skills to, you know, deliver something interesting to reporters on a moment's notice to maybe get you some buzz and some earned media.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. I mean, and for anyone looking at doing thought leadership or speaking training I've heard is very helpful. Training to have is to actually be able to kind of be able to think on your feet like that. It's a difficult skill.
Tim Peters: Yeah. And I would say, you know, it has been it was a lot of fun. And it is great if you're ever doing presentations, you're speaking at keynotes or events. That type of training, improv training can, can really help. I found, you know, for, for public speaking events. And it was actually so good. I brought the improv coaches into, do some different work with our marketing in our sales team.
And it was a hoot in terms of, even even sales folks. Right? They need to be dynamic. They have to get the attention of prospects. And so we had some improv coaches at a, at a couple of, our sales and marketing kickoffs over the past couple of years. And it was, a riot, a lot of fun.
I think people learned some, some pretty unique skills to help them with public speaking. Gosh, even during Covid, right. How can we be a bit more dynamic on on video and funny and things? So, you know, a bit of a funny tip, but we're worth exploring, I think, for any marketers and sales folks out there.
Daniel Burstein: Well, I love that again. There's so many places we can learn from. It's not just within our industry, not just the exact things our industries are doing. We want to truly be creative marketers. Like, where else can we learn? Yeah. So that was a way you invest in people where you invest in your team. One of your lessons is invest in people to foster talent, growth and a collaborative team environment.
I think that's a great example. But you mentioned specifically Angie Sabatino. So I wonder how you learned this and working with Angie.
Tim Peters: Yeah. So Angie was really when I was starting my career, my, my first, summer intern or, you know, sort of a very junior employee back again almost 20 years ago now. And, you know, like, I couldn't say enough about her in terms of her, her passion for B2B marketing, her full stack marketing capabilities from, you know, design to digital advertising to content creation.
And, we really who would have thought at the time. But over the last 20 years, we've now worked at, gosh, four different companies together. And so from that marketing, you know, intern role, you know, I was looking, at her title now, actually a VP of marketing now at a very large organization. And so I couldn't be more proud of that.
And, just a great example of you know, you want to invest in your people. You want to make sure that it's not just a job for folks that they do have, a line of sight to a career path for those that are ambitious and looking to grow their, their careers. And so, that doesn't mean we've always worked together.
It's been on and off for the those years. But each time, you know, I've been committed to making sure with Angie and in her case, right, that there's always a chance to grow, expand her expertise. And it's really great to see, someone like that, you know, where she's now? Mentoring the next generation of marketers and then things like that, which is just just amazing to see.
So, you know, we all have high pressure deadlines, targets to hit and things. But, you know, any investment you can make in your team, it it will pay off, in spades. And, you know, I just wanted to mention that with, with Angie and, you know, a great example of someone. Yeah. Who again, is now mentoring those next generation of marketers and, you know, was a great, great partner over the last 20 years.
Daniel Burstein: Well, I think that's a great kind of pairing there. What Mike Hennessy did for you and hopefully what you did for Angie Sabatino there. But let me ask. So this seems like the ultimate hiring win, let's say, like, yes, you mentored her, but also that hiring win. How do you find and grow talent to build a team?
Because this is one of the things that global marketing leaders have told me, is just one of the most important and vital things to that role. Like when I interviewed Pete House, the chief marketing officer at Unbound and a fellow Canadian, by the way, on how I made it in marketing, one of his lessons is you are only as good as your team.
And he told the story of at one point having 140 people reporting to him, but he didn't have a functioning leadership team in place, and he still felt like he had to be involved in too many things. And that was the real kind of evolution he made when he was able to have that functioning leadership team, and he was able to build that right team around him.
So how do you grow talent? How do you build that team? How do you find that team? How do you build the team? Hire all of those elements, air time.
Tim Peters: Yeah. Gosh, I couldn't agree more with your past guest. For myself, being in over 100 different countries, although I try and promote a flat, an entrepreneur environment, I am only as good as my team, right? I can't be monitoring every corner of the world, all of our, you know, hundreds of campaigns and events running at any time.
And so, you know, gosh, it's definitely a key part if you want to be, you know, running, you know, a global marketing team at a public company is definitely a critical part is to hire those those great people and find those great people. You know, for me, I you can't spend, you know, you don't shortchange the interview process, right?
I think, you know, a bad hire where it's not a fit. Gosh, you know, it doesn't get better. I don't find. Right. So invest in that upfront time to find the right candidates. For me, I've taken on an approach of, trying to be very candid. Right. Whichever organization I'm with at the time, you don't sugarcoat things. Try and be very straightforward about the company, the benefits, maybe some of the challenges or opportunities.
That's really helped me a lot by being very specific about the company, the environment and the culture. So then if you ask 3 or 6 months later, if they do join your organization, they don't they feel that they knew exactly what they were getting into. You know, at the time.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. I mean, I agree, like, don't sell in an interview. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, you want to hear the pros and cons. Here's why. Because it's really just about fit. I mean, I don't think there's really, in my opinion, there's good or bad Mark. There's so much I mean, obviously some are better than others, but finding that right fit, isn't it for your team, like, okay, this this person will fit in this role in our team and some people just won't.
It's not only you understand that helping them understand that too, right? Because you don't want them to come on board and it's not the right fit for them.
Tim Peters: Exactly. I try to be very specific about the role, what good looks like. I try and, if time permits, allow folks to talk to you, you know, peers at the company that are in similar roles where we're big enough organization, where then we're not sort of single threaded and, you know, say content marketing or digital advertising. And so as much as we can really try and share what a day in the life is, is like around the role by speaking to as many people and, you know, really letting them interviews, as well and understanding what the role is like.
Because I agree. Right, folks, it's it's more the fit than the people. Right? Most folks are engaged, passionate. They're in marketing because they love it. And just making sure that, you know, what they want to be focused on on a daily basis and how it's aligned to their career path, matches the needs of the organization is really critical.
Daniel Burstein: I like that. That's that's a nice talking. Everyone can borrow from that tactic that's listening. So we talked about we talked about marketing planning and kind of how you set up your annual planning and then how you kind of flow down from there. I would imagine a key part of that planning is also getting the whole financials right with the organization.
One of your lessons was align marketing strategies with financial accountability for strategic assets. And you said you learned that from Vince Mifsud, who is president of our systems record company. So we were talking about that annual planning. Can you take us through okay, now that's with you and your marketing team. Then how do you work with Vince or others within in-house to make sure that the financials and the marketing strategy are lining up?
Tim Peters: Yeah. So so Vince is the president of sales where I am now. Really passionate about marketing, which is exciting. He'd been the CEO of, a few martech businesses in the past. So it's really great to have a marketing champion to be working with and the other nice thing about Vince is that he's, you know, a chartered accountant as well and president of organizations.
So for him to have both of those worlds together, it's a real pleasure to be working with him as, you know, the head of marketing at the organization in terms of our approach and how we how we work together on the annual planning, we will do both, like the creative side, as we mentioned. So the the campaign calendar of events and, and, you know, digital strategy and content and we will put that all together.
We also then do both, a bottoms up and a top down approach to try and hone in on what we'll be able to contribute in terms of things like pipeline and bookings for marketing. And so, from a bottoms up perspective, the my team will look at, previous historical results, any new industry data in terms of, you know, for every dollar, B2B company is spending how much pipeline and bookings they're getting and, and we'll do some bottoms up analysis like that to put together initial an initial budget.
We'll also get some insights sort of top down from from the management team, from our board, from the sales leadership about what their targets are going to be. And, you know, usually they're going up always, you know, sort of year over year. So we'll get a sense of what what those are. And then there's usually a certain percentage that we're responsible for of the overall, target for for example.
So say the sales team is responsible for $100 million in bookings. We may be responsible for generating, you know, 25, 30, 40% of that, depending on on the year and how much budget we've been getting. And so we sort of triangulate from a bottoms up what what's possible, looking at historical results and then looking at the corporate goals and, and how we can contribute that way.
And then it's always a bit of horse trading. Right. You want stretch goals but you want them to be, achievable as well. And so we sort of bring those two worlds together and end up with, you know, a challenging but fair target for, for the demand generation team. And, all of that gets computed into things around profitability.
And for us, you know, being a public company, it's really important that, you know, in our case, we even pay a dividend to shareholders and do a bunch of different things and have to make sure we have enough money to continually invest in our products. And so all of that comes out as well into a final business plan and operating model.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. I want to ask you about that. So you mentioned before having worked in private equity or private companies. Now it's a public company as a marketing leader, what is the same and what is different between public and private. And so for example, I interviewed, JD Dillon, the CMO of Tyco Energy, which is a public company, and one of his lessons was businesses must have a relentless focus on ROI, which includes marketing.
And he talked about those dashboard metrics, which you kind of mentioned in the opening, and how he's got to communicate them to the CEO and the chairman about ROI. One of the things early in my career, which, just shocked me is I got a chance to where I was working in corporate communications, and I got a chance to work on earnings calls.
Okay. And, you know, software companies, the software companies growing quickly, you know, and but the way that analysts would beat the heck out of the, you know, the CEO, the CMO, the sales head on the call because, hey, we predicted it was going to grow 14%. And because of currency shifts or other things, it grew 12%. And I'm sitting there thinking they grew 12%.
You know, that's pretty good, you know, so just that pressure that you can be under as a public company. But as you mentioned, private equity, they're rolling up. You mean they're putting in that money with a multiple because they have a specific, you know, targeting end that you're going for. So all that said, from your experience as a marketing leader, what are kind of the similarities and differences between public and private.
Tim Peters: Yeah, great. Great question. So and even within the world of private companies, there can be some nuances, right? We've gone through an area where venture capital backed companies where growth at all cost. Right. And so, you know, you would notice companies or maybe that ROI or as long as the revenue is coming that that you maybe didn't have to have profitable growth, for example.
So it's really interesting the different dynamics in, in private companies, that being one in terms of what good looks like, it may be, you know, you're able to get a certain amount of budget because it is we're just trying to, you know, either hit a home run and be a unicorn or go broke. Right. And so those are different dynamics for marketing, which would get a lot of spend maybe for more, branding and awareness type marketing.
Right. That wouldn't have a set ROI. You know, we then mentioned private equity. They tend to, again, usually are focusing somewhat on profitability. They may have taken on debt to do acquisitions or different things or, you know, have to pay, pay interest, for example, on debt they would have done to, to buy, you know, various companies to do an industry roll up and then all, you know, all the way to, to public companies where you're definitely, you know, much more accountable.
Everything's public. You know, you know, titrations in the stock. If you don't deliver on the promises, you've made. So there's a lot more accountability. It's definitely not a best efforts basis. Like it might be in a in a in a private company. You have to deliver. You're accountable to shareholders. And so you know for us in our case, you know, having having those plans, we have to be fairly confident in our forecasting and to deliver for, for our shareholders.
And so, you know, otherwise, has a company can be penalized fairly, seriously from, you know, the valuation of your company in the public markets.
Daniel Burstein: And publicly traded and publicly. Yeah. Well, let me as in marketing, I don't know. You know, some companies are set up differently in there's, you know, investor relations and there's, you know, corporate communications, different things. But in marketing, do you look at shareholders and analysts as a target audience for you? Right? I mean, I'm sure you've got your channel marketing partners, you've got your end customers, you've got all these different audiences that you're selling a certain thing, a product or, you know, whatever it is, or just sell your product, you know, but also, I mean, I share is essentially in some ways a product.
There are regulations around that, quiet periods, all that. But do you look at, I mean, is that within the marketing purview? Hey, analysts and and shareholders are ultimately, customer two that we have to market to and have a plan for.
Tim Peters: Yeah, definitely. They are stakeholders and we make sure that we are communicating, often and frequently on public channels so folks can stay up to date on what we're doing. So that could be everything from from case studies to, press releases with new wins, customer wins or, product launch. And so, you know, definitely we have a strategy to make sure all of the various stakeholders are informed about, what we're doing because we we represent them and we we report to them.
And it's really important that, especially, you know, stakeholders being, you know, actual owners of stock and also analysts are up to speed on, on what we're doing. And it also includes, you know, analysts as well. So analysts around, you know, the Gartner's and foresters of the world as well, making sure they're up to date on, you know, what we're doing from a, a product and product roadmap standpoint.
So, you know, like all public companies, we have quarterly, board meetings and they're followed by, time for analysts to, have Q&A with us. And so making sure we're prepared for those questions, if they're up to speed on our on a strategy, and that we're able to communicate that in an effective way is definitely an important part of, you know, what what marketing does.
Daniel Burstein: So there's one last question I wanted to work on. Naturally, I could not make it happen, but we talked about your career that you started as a there was a personal trainer at, I think it was Bally Total Fitness. Right. And I just question you start there. Then you go into this great career working with gold marketing companies, tech companies.
There's got to be something that you learned from being a personal trainer. And I say this because to me, like what we're essentially trying to do with marketing, we're either trying to keep a behavior going or change a behavior. Right. And so these behaviors like if it's, you know, for a B2B technical company or a television company, tends to be around the way you're working or you know, the products you're using, the, the services, the software or whatever, right?
But for a personal trainer, it's one of the hardest things is the food you're eating or the activity you're doing or not doing. So for me, I started my first. I was like nine years old as a paper boy. I actually learned so much from that job that I used today about remember to go and collect money and like actually having those at bats that you would have to have in sales like keep having those a batch collect that money.
And so I just want to thinking of going back to that very first, job you had, was there anything that you learned as a personal trainer that you were then able to apply as a tech marketing leader?
Tim Peters: Sure. That there's a few things, and it was a really great start. It sounds like just like like your role was as well for yourself and your career. You know, in personal training, you're in sales. It's a commission based role. And so having that sales background and having to sell yourself and be confident, you know, definitely helps me if I'm doing any, you know, anything on stage or presenting or having started, you know, over 25 years ago, doing those type of roles definitely helped.
And, that background of selling, I think is really helped my career as well, because I'm much more easily able to to partner with sales leaders, which is critical in, in B2B anyways, and B2B, software sales. And so having that background doing sales gives me credibility. I can relate, you hear so much about maybe marketing, throwing leads over the fence and not sure what happens to them afterwards.
And so knowing the, the trials and tribulations of sales and how difficult the job that is, yeah, both gave me empathy for sales, but also, you know, some, some credibility, I think in terms of partnering with, with sales as well. I think the other interesting point would be, around knowing your customer. So, you know, gosh, personal training is a high end, almost luxury item for, for folks, right?
And so to keep and retain and keep those customers that you're working with in personal training, you really had, to bear hug them, know everything about them. You know, what their vision, what their goals are for the future and create, you know, custom programs for them, for training, for eating and for health and then deliver results for them as well.
Not, you know, not just, you know, they had to see improvement. And so I think that really relates to, to marketing these days. You've got, you know, really understand your customers understand, you know, what pains, what challenges they're having and reflect that in the products and services you offer. You can't stay high level. You've really got to know the customers and why they you know, why existing customers want to work with you and why they continue to work with you to avoid churn and then use that data to attract new customers as well in similar industries.
Daniel Burstein: Well, I love to have that plan, but then like you said, like they got to see results can be the best plan in the world. But if they're not seeing results are not gonna come back to you. The same is true in personal training. The same is true in B2B tech software. We talking about go? Yeah. Go ahead.
Tim Peters: Oh, I just I think and I think we're moving more to that world, right. With software, more outcome based software. Right. So to be able to show in dashboards in real time what those results are, you know, with, with I think we're moving more and more to that sort of outcome based software. And so we've got to be able to deliver that.
And then as marketers, you know, really adequately, promote that, that change in how our products are delivering outcomes.
Daniel Burstein: Right. Make sure that getting back to what we talked about, the non profit, there's a perceived value letting them actually see the value that they're getting actually perceiving that value that we're delivering I like that. So we talked about a lot of different things about what it means to be a marketer through all your many lessons, all your roles.
If you had to break it down, what are the key qualities of an effective marketer?
Tim Peters: Yeah, be a big, big question. You know, for me. Gosh. So so I think maybe we'll start with some of the higher level items. I think curiosity is really important, right? Marketers, to be curious about their audience, their customer needs, what's going to generate ROI? I think curiosity is super critical. Will help drive innovation.
You have to stay curious because marketing is always changing. And, although we're becoming, you know, AI and more data centric, we really I think curiosity and creativity is what's going to help us stand apart from our competitors. You know, I think a close point to that would be adaptability as well. The market is always changing so much.
We don't live in a world of set it and forget it. We've got to be granular. We've got to be diving into the results, looking at the numbers and, you know, really trying to understand things. And it's always going to be, you know, really dynamic. Depending on the seniority of the role, I think strategic thinking is really important, right, to have that, that high level view.
So as you become more senior, really understanding that, you know, overarching, view of things is definitely going to be critical and combining that with analytical thinking. So you've got to be comfortable with numbers. You've got to be comfortable with the analytics to be able to report to your board, to your CEO on what's working and what's not and justify next best investment and getting incremental marketing dollars.
You've really got to nail reporting and analytics. And, you know, we're almost half, you know, financial analysts at this point or, you know, at least be sure you have someone good on your team that can help you prepare those those numbers.
Daniel Burstein: I like that. Well that's bold. Almost half financial analyst. Yeah, those are the many skills you need as a marketer. So. Well, thanks for sharing so much about your career today, Tim. I really learned a lot.
Tim Peters: This has been great. Daniel. Always been a big fan of the podcast and I'm really happy to to be on. And hopefully there's a few, few ideas there that folks might be able to incorporate into their daily lives as marketers.
Daniel Burstein: Absolutely. Thanks to everyone for listening. I hope you did get some lessons today.
Outro: Thank you for joining us for how I made it and marketing with Daniel Burstein. Now that you've got an inspiration for transforming yourself as a marketer, get some ideas for your next marketing campaign. From Marketing Sherpas extensive library of free case studies at Marketing sherpa.com. That's marketing Paycom.
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