Marketing Adaptability: The art of letting go of creative ideas so you can champion future concepts (podcast episode #112)

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Imagine this: you've spent months ideating, planning, and crafting the perfect marketing campaign. The creative is stunning, the messaging is on point, and the target audience has been meticulously defined. But as the launch date approaches, things start to wobble. A key department is out of sync, a crucial piece of technology isn't ready, or the timeline starts to slip. We've all been there – standing on the precipice of what could be a game-changing launch, only to watch it teeter on the brink of failure.

The truth is, no matter how brilliant your marketing idea is, it will never see the light of day without the support of a well-oiled machine behind it. And that machine? It’s built on relationships.

So I loved this lesson in a recent podcast guest application – ‘Building healthy cross-functional relationships is the key to any successful marketing launch.’

To hear the lessons behind that story, along with many more lesson-filled stories, I sat down Nicole Sumner, Brand Director, Ollie Pets.

Ollie has delivered more than 200 million meals, and Sumner leads a team of nine marketers at Ollie.

Listen to the full episode using this embedded player or by clicking through to your preferred audio streaming service using the links below it.

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Stories (with lessons) about what she made in marketing

Building healthy cross-functional relationships is the key to any successful marketing launch

You simply cannot create content in a vacuum, or you’re bound to get feedback too late in the process that will negatively impact the overall perception of your project. During Sumner’s time at Backcountry, they developed a process where the marketing team would gather input from their product design and merchandising partners at the early stages of marketing positioning and creative development.

This created a more complex series of checkpoints and alignment meetings, but ultimately it ensured that all their teams were invested and proud of the creative output which resulted in her success as the marketing campaign quarterback.

Sometimes you must let go of a creative idea to ensure you have the opportunity to stand up for something you really believe in later

You can’t make a battle out of every piece of creative feedback you receive. Sumner’s first big integrated campaign she worked on from concept to photo shoot to creative assets happened right before the world shut down in spring 2020. The day before they were scheduled to launch, she received feedback that their creative assets seemed tone deaf given their current circumstances.

She was so upset, she wanted to argue to defend their photography and creative direction, but she knew it was more important to focus on a creative solution vs dwelling on her own disappointment. So, she got to work with their team developing a new concept and very quickly redesigning all their assets with an entirely new visual direction. It ended up being a successful launch and demonstrated their creativity as a team under challenging conditions.

If you don’t have contagious conviction in your idea, you can’t expect anyone else to be excited about it.

During her time at Ollie, their dog ice cream collaboration with Van Leeuwen was one of her favorite projects Sumner had the chance to work on. This started as a ‘what if?’ idea and they needed to build a business case and brand value forecast to get approval from their leadership team.

Throughout this process, Sumner remained shamelessly excited about the upside this would provide for Ollie as a brand – the ability to drive awareness among a new audience, PR opportunities, amazing UGC content, the list goes on. This helped her gain supporters in other areas of the business throughout the discovery process and made the ultimate pitch more compelling.

If you’re the most passionate person in the room, your idea has a better chance of getting approved.

Lessons (with stories) from people she collaborated with

Act like you already have the job title you want

via Meg Keller, VP of Ecommerce Marketing at Backcountry

Keller taught her this lesson during a time when Sumner was preparing herself for a promotion that Sumner really wanted to secure. They mapped out growth areas for her to focus on, including expanding the scope of her current role to take on a new aspect of marketing that allowed her cross functional and leadership exposure, and offered an opportunity to showcase her strengths in a new way.

It’s OK if you’ve never done something before, say yes and figure it out

via Katie Hartman, SVP, Group Account Director at 10 Thousand Design

Sumner worked with Hartman as they were standing up a new function and building a team at an agency. Looking back, Sumner feels lucky that she had this experience because Sumner learned so much in such a short period of time. They built a service and a process from the ground up, determined what skills they needed for the team, and they constantly tested and iterated to make sure they were delivering the best content and strategic partnership for their clients.

You can’t be upset over an opportunity that you don’t raise your hand for

Via Hillary Benjamin, CMO at Ollie

Sumner has worked with Benjamin at two different companies now. Many years ago, a director-level role opened on their brand team at Backcountry and Sumner really wanted it, but she was worried she didn’t have enough experience or the perfect background to take on the role. Her imposter syndrome was battling her ambition for growth, it was a tough spot to be in. Sumner thought a lot about applying for the role, but she never did.

Shortly after, Benjamin let her know that she was bringing someone in from the outside to fill the role. Sumner was really upset. In a conversation she’ll never forget, Benjamin basically told her “How would I know you were interested in being considered if you didn’t apply and you didn’t tell me?” It’s such a good reminder to not count yourself out before you even try to go for something you want. You might not get the role, the promotion, the high-profile project, but you won’t know if you don’t try.

Discussed in this episode

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Creative UX/UI For Impactful Marketing: Think, build, and scale like a product owner (podcast episode #102)

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Transcript

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Nicole Sumner: And I was heartbroken. I was so upset. I was like, I wanted that job. And I didn't say that to her, but she saw that I was upset and I. And she asked, just like, hey, are you upset about it? What's going on? And I told her that I would have liked to be considered for the job. And what she said really stuck with me.

And she's like, well, how was I supposed to know that she didn't apply for the job? You didn't tell me you wanted the job. So I moved on and I made a decision. And it really stuck with me because I think we do that a lot, where you kind of get in your head and you think about, like, this is what I want to do.

I want to do that next. If you tell your friends, which is great, but if you don't actually put yourself forward and go for it the way you're going to get it, you might not get the job, but there's absolutely no way that you're going to get it if you don't, actively put yourself on.

Intro: Welcome to how I made it in marketing. From marketing Sherpa, we scour pitches from hundreds of creative leaders and uncover specific examples, not just trending ideas or buzzword laden schmaltz. Real world examples to help you transform yourself as a marketer. Now here's your host, the senior Director of Content and Marketing at Marketing Sherpa, Daniel Burstein, to tell you about today's guest and.

Daniel Burstein: Imagine this you've spent months ideating planning and crafting the perfect marketing campaign. The creative is stunning. The messaging is on point and the target audience has been meticulously defined. But as the launch date approaches, things start to wobble. A key department is out of sync, a crucial piece of technology isn't ready, or the timeline starts to slip. Hey, we've all been there.

Standing on the precipice of what could be a game changing launch, only to watch it teeter on the brink of failure. The truth is, no matter how brilliant your marketing idea is, it will never see the light of day without the support of a well-oiled machine behind it. And that machine. It's built on relationships. So I loved this lesson in a recent podcast Guest Application.

Building healthy cross-functional relationships is the key to any successful marketing launch. Here to share the story behind that lesson, along with many more lesson filled stories. Is Nicole Sumner a brand director at all? Thanks for joining me, Nicole.

Nicole Sumner: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Daniel Burstein: All right. Let's take a quick look at your background so people know who I'm talking to. You've been the account supervisor at swirl. You've been the senior manager of integrated marketing at back to back country.com. And for the past two years, Nicole has been at Ali. Ali, if you're not familiar, has delivered 200, over 200 million meals.

And we'll find out what type of meals those are as we get going in this conversation. And, Nicole leads a team of nine marketers. So, Nicole, give us a sense. What is your day like as brand director?

Nicole Sumner: So first thing, I jump into slack in the morning, like so many other marketers, I'm sure. Ali is a remote company, so we're distributed all across the country with many of our team members being on the East Coast. So I find myself playing catch up a little bit in the morning because I live in Salt Lake City.

Utah mountain time. So jump in the conversations and then I go into Ryk, which is our project management tool, and I review any copy and creatives that's ready for feedback, answer questions for my team so that they can keep moving on projects that they're working on and they, get the direction that they need to keep doing their jobs on a daily basis.

And then a lot of my time is spent in meetings. So I go to a lot of cross-functional meetings with the product team, with other marketing teams at Ali. We also have a growth marketing team in our retention team, and we work really closely on a lot of different projects. And I sit in as a, as an input and like just to get perspective from the brand in those instances.

And then I spend a lot of time in one on ones and brand related meetings to stay up to speed on things like, our social media strategy and to provide guidance on an ongoing basis. There.

Daniel Burstein: So that sounds all very, I don't know, business responsible and executional and I give you credit for that. But brand director like where do you get your ideas like. Wendy I didn't hear in that in that day. Any chance for you like sipping a cup of coffee, looking out the mountain, skiing, hiking, like coming up with the next brilliant idea because we have one really cool ice cream idea.

I want to ask you about that one.

Nicole Sumner: That's a good call out. I do drink my morning coffee and read newsletters, so I usually do that before I start my workday in bed and just sit with myself and my thoughts. And I do love reading to be inspired by what other brands are doing. And then, I have a dog, Reuben, which is fitting since I work for, dog Food company and my lunch walk is often my favorite time of day to just kind of get lost in my thoughts.

And sometimes I listen to a podcast while I'm walking, and sometimes I just listen to the sounds of my neighborhood and that is usually when I get those random thoughts about, oh, what if we did this? And I never thought of that before. And when I get back to my desk, I usually fire off a bunch of messages based on that.

Daniel Burstein: Nice. Yeah, not when you're in a project management platform, and I just want to put a plug in. Anyone listening? The marketing Sherpa newsletter goes great with coffee and the how I made It marketing podcast goes great with lunchtime walks. Okay, that's enough of that. But, let's jump into some of the lessons from your career and the stories behind them so we can learn from you.

I've said it before, like, I love marketing because we get to make things, and I don't think other industries get to make things like we do. Like I've never been anything else, but don't think like podiatrists and actuaries and all these other job not making things. I see your first lesson here. I mentioned it in the open. Building healthy cross-functional relationships is the key to any successful marketing launch.

So how did you learn this lesson?

Nicole Sumner: Yes, this was a great lesson that I learned. I mean, I learned pretty early on to the importance of building relationships in the fact that you I mean, really everything that we do is in some ways asking for other people to support our ideas and to go along with what we want to do from a marketing perspective.

And if you if you want someone to support your idea, you have to have a relationship with them and you have to have supported them in some way. If they have asked for your for a favor from you, or have, asked for you to get behind something that they're really passionate about. So I really now when I start a new job, this this happened, this evolved naturally, but I now really make a point to set up meetings with people that are not related to work.

When I was working in an office, it would be like grabbing lunch or getting coffee, or going for a walk with someone so that you can get out of like just the work mindset and actually build a real relationship and connect with someone about their family or their hobbies or what, you know, anything outside of what you do for a living in the confines of your job.

And now that I'm remote, I think, you know, for anyone who's remote settings, coffee or tea meeting, just like a catch up with someone that's not related to work, that could be a great way to achieve the same type of relationship building. But specifically, how this lesson really came into play was during my time at backcountry, we had, previously when we would launch campaigns, there would be it would only happen within marketing, and then once it would go live, we would get feedback from other folks on different teams, particularly our merchandizing team that, drives the product that we sell on the site.

And they would, you know, say something like that. Didn't seem like the most authentic way to use that product. Or why didn't we think about shooting it at this location? And it would kind of put a damper on the campaign launch, because no one wants to hear feedback like that from your key coworkers about how, you know, like they thought you could have done it better.

Basically, like even it doesn't matter if it's successful or not at that point. If there's a perception that maybe you didn't do it the best way possible, it just doesn't feel very good. So I worked on a new process where, it feels overly corporate and, like, complex, but it really did work. So I would meet with those those team members ahead of time when we were building out the marketing calendar and check in with them and say, hey, we're going to do a marketing story on hiking.

Do you have any thoughts on like the best products to feature or, do you have any tips about, how to choose hiking poles or how to choose hiking boots? And we would just have an open conversation because they really are experts in their area of beyond the product that they. And so having these conversations and then checking in again once we decided, okay, you know, we're going to shoot this campaign in the studio and we're going to feature these models, and this is how the shot list is going to go.

You know, I'm just I'm just running this by you. If you have any input let me know. Then once we got to the end, it really felt like they'd been part of the process the whole time. So there were no surprises. And it just it was it felt much more successful because we all were happy with the final outcome.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. So I applaud you for that. I think sometimes as marketers, where we really fall down is that internal marketing in that internal communication for so focused on the external customer and co-creation, when you take people along on the journey, they're more bought in, which is important for everyone in the company, but especially in one customer facing. However, let me play devil's advocate for just a moment for our audience who might be listening and say, that sounds good in theory, but in practice.

So how did you earn trust early in the process to avoid that? Too many kicks, too many cooks in the kitchen problem, right? So for example, when I interviewed Marco Mueller, the CMO of the Viva, on how I made it marketing, one of his lessons was trust is earned, not given. And you talked about doing this when you're like early into a company.

And like, I could just see a team being like, okay, this person's knew their understand it. And and they could have those same gripes that you talk about after the campaign is launched, but at least the campaign has launched it. Right. It's not like, you know, sending the campaign off track. And now we're three months later. It's not happening or, you know, so this is a great idea.

I think we should all practice it. But I could just hear some of the audience be like, yeah, that sounds good in theory, but I needed to get this campaign launched in two months, and I don't want any more roadblocks. And I already have. So how did you build that trust on the early side of things? Not to have that issue?

Nicole Sumner: Yeah, that's a good question. I, I, I try to frame the conversations as input. There's a way to, you know, it's, it's hard to describe exactly how you would say this out loud, but that they really are just input into a process where you are deciding ultimately how it's done and how the project is going to come to life.

So it's a fine line, but if you bring someone in and ask their opinion, you might not listen. You might not execute it exactly as they're asking, but you're still getting their input. And then if I if for whatever reason, I decide, you know, we're going to take that input and we're going to we're going to incorporate it, but we're going to do it slightly differently because I think that this is the right way to do it.

And our creative team wants to do it this way. If you explain that and you explain your thought process and why you ultimately decided to go a slightly different direction, you still gain trust because you're being really open and you're communicating about why you're making decisions, and that you're not just randomly deciding to do something because you think it looks good or, you know, I think there's sometimes this notion of people in creative roles make emotional feelings and they don't take into account what performs or, more like analytical thinking.

So I really try to, combat that myth as much as possible and communicate why we're making creative decisions. And then once a campaign launches, there's a lot more internal marketing that has to be done to share the results and to share how it's going so that you do build trust for the next time that you jump into a project.

People can see like they have it covered. They know what they're doing. If they ask for my opinion at a specific time, I'll be happy to give it. But they're not going to try to overstep too much.

Daniel Burstein: That's great. I don't know, like I said, we can all learn from that, internal communication you're doing. We all need to do that a little more. You mentioned the kind of emotional aspect of being a creative, as people see us like that. And I do feel like that is true to a certain level. Like, for me, my ideas have always been my baby.

It's very hard when someone says, your baby is ugly. I mean, this is what we have to learn as professional marketers, but still you get attached. So I really appreciate this next lesson. It's just, again, another level of understanding the internal dynamics of an organization and playing well in them. You say sometimes you have to let go of a creative idea to ensure you have the opportunity to stand up for something you really believe in later.

So this sounds true, but painful. So how did you do this?

Nicole Sumner: Yeah, this is this is this was a hard one to learn for me. And I feel like, like many people who go into the marketing field, I'm very passionate. I feel deeply. So I feel like that's a common theme that I think that makes you a good marketer to to really have a strong sense of, believing in what you're doing.

And getting behind it. And then if something doesn't go according to plan or someone gives you pretty, severe feedback, it does it really it does hurt. And you have to kind of learn to build a thick skin a bit and get through that and be able to move on to the next idea. And so how I learned this was leading up to the months leading up to the pandemic I was doing.

I had just been promoted at backcountry, and I was doing my first seasonal launch campaign for the product that we developed in-house. So we were making mountain bike apparel, climbing apparel and, hiking, hiking apparel and I planned a whole photo shoot in Sedona, and we had an incredible photographer, and we literally like weeks before the shutdown, we did this photo shoot.

And as it was happening, like many people were probably thinking like, oh, this isn't going to be a big deal. Like, we're going to go home and things are going to be back to normal. This isn't something we really have to worry about. And as we came home and we started to edit the photos and we started to build all of our marketing assets, our team got sent home and we started working remotely.

We still kept charging forward and then, I think the champagne was supposed to launch like the end of March, which, if you remember, was maybe the worst timing for. So everyone was social, social distancing and there were all these new cultural phenomenon that were happening. And the day before we were supposed to launch, our leadership team gave the feedback that.

Showing people close together, climbing a mountain, biking and hiking, which is what typical outdoor assets look like. It just didn't feel right since people were being asked to not do that in their daily lives and to find different ways to, you know, enjoy the enjoy the outdoors, not with their friends and it was really painful because we had spent a lot of time and money and creative energy to create video and photo.

And, you know, we thought that they were perfectly on brand and beautiful assets. And I gave myself like 30 minutes to be really upset about it. And then I met with the creative team and had to deliver the bad news that we had to completely scrap the work that we'd been doing and come up with a new creative direction to launch the campaign.

And like, less than a week, and the way that I, I feel like I've learned a good way to deliver news like that so that it's empathetic but really direct and like, we have to figure this out and let's like, work through this together and come up with a creative solution. And the team took that away.

And, came up with a direction that was like studio photography. So, so no models. And then very focused on product features and used a creative way to point out different elements of the items so that we were it was less, it was less human, if you will, than typically in outdoor, creative. It's it's all about like the experience and it's showcasing the products and action.

But it still felt really, strong and technical and it and we have fun with it. And we were able to still let our brand voice come through in the way that we animated it. And added different, like, visual markers to the product. So at the end of the day, the creative was really well received by the leadership team and by our customers.

It was a successful campaign, which is more important. But it also, showcased that we could be creative in a stressful situation and figure out how to move forward fairly quickly. So I think, yeah, ultimately it was a good lesson to learn.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. I mean, sometimes restrictions and hard and you know, quick deadlines are the things that make us most creative because we're forced to think that way. But, you know, it's a really interesting lesson you're given. I wouldn't I didn't expect was going to go that way because I've interviewed a lot of marketers who went through the pandemic, whose product literally, you know, wouldn't work anymore.

Like, I interviewed, the CMO who is launching, Virgin Hotels Las Vegas. And just right around that time, it was like all of a sudden, no, but I would think mountain biking would be perfect. You're out there and, you know, you're you're separated. But so let me ask you, you, you the second part of your lesson is, that about later that, you know, you can you can get something you really want later.

So what you described seemed pretty evergreen. Were you able to launch it then a year after Covid or six months after 18 months? I was just like, it just kind of a temporary. All right, here's our just fix short term. But like we still got this campaign that we can so can bring to light.

Nicole Sumner: Sorry what I, what I really meant by that was when a different idea comes up later, like a totally different campaign or whatever it is that you want to fight for, if you are able to adapt and take feedback like that and work through it, then when the time comes that you really want to stand up for something and and make a case for it, your team is the leadership team or whoever you're like.

Defending that idea to is more receptive because you're not seen as someone who pushes back on feedback all the time. So that's more what I meant. We were able to use those assets later when things, when restrictions, loosened up. But the lesson itself was to be as painful as it is to pick and choose your battles for what you want to fight for creatively.

And sometimes you have to take that feedback and adapt. And then when the day comes that, like, this is the hill, I'm gonna stand on for marketing, you have, you just have. It's perceived better.

Intro Dude: Well.

Daniel Burstein: Did you have that experience later? Because I like the you mentioned the Hill analogy because my creative director used to say to me, like you'd say, Dan, is this your hill to die on? Because it's like if it is right next to you, but if not, let it just let it go. And that because like, as a writer, I mean just every you don't want anything change sometimes, you know, they're messing up a little thing and like no, they don't get it.

And that's just that was always a great lesson. Is this your health to die? And then he's thinking like, all right, it's not. And we'll wait for something else. So I mean, did that work out?

Nicole Sumner: It did. It works out in my favor because I think I think I was in my time there, I was perceived as being a good collaborator. And like, works well across teams. And then when I did have an idea that we felt really strongly about, the way that I delivered it and, I think, like politely, if someone pushed back would say, you know, I really like I respect your I respect your feedback on this, but creatively, we really feel strongly that we want to deliver it this way and want to give it a try.

We were able to, to do that later.

Daniel Burstein: Now come on, the world isn't ending anymore. Let's. I can understand when the world's ending. We couldn't do that stuff. But it's not anymore. Let's do something fun.

Nicole Sumner: Let's do something fun. Let's try it and see how it goes.

Daniel Burstein: Right? Okay. So up to this point, there's been a very corporate conversation for a brand director, which I appreciate because I've showing us like as a creative or someone more the creative side, how to navigate these things that we have to navigate. We are, I like to say, like corporate artists, we are creatives within a business. But I do like your next lesson because it kind of brings us back to that creativity part.

You said if you are the most passionate person in the room, your idea has a better chance of getting approved. So you just told us how if you're the most reasonable person in the room, your next idea has a chance of getting approved. Tell us about this passion element and how your idea got approved.

Nicole Sumner: Yeah. So during my time at Allie, we I had this random idea I was out running. I was out for a run, like you said. Like, where do you get your random ideas? And I thought to myself, wow. So we make Allie makes, human grade fresh dog food. And I thought, what if we made a dog ice cream that we could also send to our members as a nice treat alongside their dog's meals?

And so we approached, Van Lewin, if you've heard of them, they make really high quality, fun flavors. They do a lot of different collabs and we had this idea that we together could make, dog ice cream. And so Allie is really open to, to creative marketing ideas, which is one of the things I love the best about working here.

But we like many companies, you still have to pitch in your idea and get the financial approval from your CFO and build a bit of a business case around why this is a good idea for the brand and for the business. And so I was this was one of those ideas. I was like, the ice cream is my hill.

Like, I just really felt strongly that it was a great brand opportunity. We had really good alignment with Van Loon. We were going to reach a new, a new audience outside of our existing dog parent customers. And so I worked on I like the pre-work before we got it approved was, you know, reaching out to different people in our team, working with my analysts to come up with, you know, projections around if we if we look at our previous best selling tree and we have customer insights, we have survey data that shows that our customers are asking for an ice cream.

Then, you know, we could project that this is going to sell at this percent. And then you look at the past collabs that Van Loon has done and how many PR stories they've received. Well, they've never done a dog product before. So we think that this is going to be even more buzzworthy from a social media and PR standpoint.

And so I definitely had to use my like, business analytics hat to build a case, all the while knowing like just in my gut, that it was a really good idea and I had to go through those steps, to get it approved. But the whole time, I feel like I was also talking to other people on the team and kind of being a cheerleader for the project, and I got other people really excited about it as well, so that when the time came and the decision got approved, everyone was really excited to work on it.

So I didn't have to, like, I did all the the selling up front. So then when we got to to go through with it, everyone from our fulfillment team who had to figure out how to ship ice cream for the first time and had to go through a lot of different transit tests that we've never done before, our, digital product team had to, basically, you know, build a new experience so that we could add this.

We're a subscription company, and it wasn't going to be a subscription product, so they had to do some work to make that feasible on the front end for customers. So there was a lot of work that had to go into this. But throughout the process, I was, positive cheerleader for the project, and everyone was really excited to get it through to, to bring it to life.

Daniel Burstein: So that's a really engaging story. And I want to ask you now that in hindsight, what have you learned about doing collabs, like what would you do differently? What would you double down? Because I see this, I don't know if it's happening more. It just seems to be happening more because there's that little fancy X, right? It's like all the X value and you see this everywhere.

So they were really experienced with the Van Loon. Seems like Allie was less experienced with it. And as you mentioned, you had to make some specific changes ice cream, shipping and you know, changing from a subscription product. So in hindsight, what would you do? The same. What would you do different? What did you learn about collabs?

Nicole Sumner: Yeah. I think collabs are really fun. It's done. It's done well. And by well I mean they are they make sense for the brands. Like they're unexpected, but they make sense. So I feel like sometimes you see collabs that are like I think just for like the social media flash, but don't really make sense for the brands or the business.

So I think what I learned is, using a collab to increase brand awareness among your target audience in a place where they're already spending their time. So whether it's like a like a media relationship, they're already consuming media in a certain place. They're shopping for a different product, for a totally different, totally different, need a different part of their lives.

And then they're exposed to your brand in a fun and unexpected way. So we're looking into other collabs for Allie, but we're being thoughtful about what types of categories do we want to go into, and making sure that the, the brand, personality and the esthetic of the brand that we're partnering with lines up with ours so that when someone sees it, they're like, oh, I didn't see that coming, but I get it.

Like that makes sense. So I think that's the biggest thing that I learned was, it's not enough to just have a really fun idea. There does have to be some good brand and business alignment. So that it it actually succeeds. And then you're given the runway to do something like that again.

Daniel Burstein: Okay. The first half of how I made it in marketing, we talk about things we've made, which is often campaigns or brands, but sometimes it's an actual product like dog ice cream. I love it. On the second half of the episode, we're going to talk about lessons we learned from the people we made those things with. But first I should mention that the How I Made It in Marketing podcast is underwritten by Mech Labs.

I, the parent organization of marketing Sherpa Labs. I was built on Mech Labs patented methodology, discovered from 10,000 marketing experiments. And now you can speak with its AI experts. I mean, actually talk to them. Just hit the start recording microphone icon to talk to it or to read a loud speaker icon to hear it talk to you. You can try and labs AI for free.

How about that? You don't even have to register to get started at Mech Labs. I.com that's mech Labs ai.com. All right. Now let's talk about some of the people you learned from you collaborated with in your career. We mentioned you spent some time at backcountry, and you mentioned Meg Keller, VP of e-commerce marketing at backcountry, and you said the lesson you learned from Meg was act like you already have the job title you want.

So how'd you learn that?

Nicole Sumner: Yes. Meg was a wonderful person that I worked with. Who? She's still at backcountry and has had a very successful career there. In the time that she was my manager, I had been working there for a number of years already, and I was really ready for a director title. I felt like I had proven myself. I had, kind of been put through the wringer in terms of work that I've done.

And if you looked at, just everything that I had accomplished it, it really felt like it wasn't like I just wanted the title. I really felt like I deserved it. And she agreed. But at some companies, I'm sure other people can relate to this. They're like certain rules around you can only get promoted at a certain time, and there's only a certain number of people who can be promoted.

And at a different, at different intervals. And it can feel really frustrating to have some of those restrictions put in place. But kind of like what you were saying earlier, I feel like I've learned in some ways to play along with the rules of the corporate game to, to get ahead, essentially, like if that's the type of company you're working at, you just have to figure out, what do I need to do to, to succeed under these circumstances?

And that was what she taught me, was that, you know, this isn't the time, but to make the to make the argument even easier when the time comes, like, here's what you need to be doing to be doing the job, the job that you want tomorrow. Here are the ways that you can be doing that job today without the title.

And she was great at giving me the opportunity to, kind of like, shape my current job to set me up to be seen as like a seamless transition into the next role. So I took on new responsibility earlier that would ultimately be expected at the next level.

Daniel Burstein: So I think part of our ways to advance in our career as marketers is sometimes to be not just marketers, right? Not the obvious thing. Just buying media or PPC ads or whatever it is creating those brand campaigns. So when you're either in this role or other roles, was there something you did that maybe was outside the typical role of a marketer to help you get a promotion?

I mean, you use the ice cream example, and I'll give you one example from when I interviewed Clinton Bonner and the vice president of marketing at launch by NTT data. I like one of his lessons. He said, think, build and scale like a product owner. Right. Again, we're not just buying media. And he gave an example of, for leads that were coming in.

You wanted to give them a chance to speak to a subject matter expert right away. If they chose to. And he essentially built, like this, custom integration of different tools like slack and all these other things to build a product, essentially what it was you get people from, okay, raising their hands. You can speak to a subject matter expert right away.

So that's one thing. We're not just marketers. We got to be product owners, too. Was there anything you did like to kind of grow in your career? That's not the typical marketing hat.

Nicole Sumner: Yeah, I think the biggest things for me was I built new processes or new programs. So when something would come up, this happened a few times back country where we wanted to, we wanted to make a video series like we'd never done X for YouTube videos, and there was no one on the team that it made sense to own that.

And so I raised my hand and said, you know, at the time my lane was social media and some some cross channel campaigns, and I said, I can do that. I can find, a videographer, an editor, and I can build out what is the like. We need a studio and we need, we need a writer to write the scripts, and then we'll film them and edit them, and we'll pick what products, we'll do product review videos, and then we'll do some other, like, what are the different types of videos or making that content strategy.

So getting to do projects where you're show where you show that you can not just execute on something, you can build something new that's never been done before and build the right team and figure out how to get it done and make a budget. And like, buy equipment that you that you've never had to purchase before. And like all of these little micro decisions, whatever that project is really showing that you can take it from nothing to something is going to showcase that.

You can take on more responsibility, and you can do your scene in a different way because you know, in your day to day job you do one thing, but when you do something like that, you demonstrate that you can be more a big picture, and you can and you can figure out how to operationalize something that's never been done before.

Daniel Burstein: Now, that can be scary, right? Because we haven't done it before. And so I like this next lesson. You say it's okay if you've never done something before. Say yes and figure it out. Yes. And you learned this from Katie Hartman, SVP and Group Account director at 10,000 design. So how did you learn this? Did Katie ask you to do something?

And you're like, oh no, or.

Nicole Sumner: Katie, it was great. So we worked together at swirl. This is I lived in the Bay area for a number of years, and for I was in San Francisco, and we at the time were the agency of record for the Microsoft stores, and we were doing all of their design elements when they launch new stores and the in-store, merchandizing, anything that they needed.

And the time came when they were looking for a new social media agency. And Katie volunteered to, to put in a pitch and to build a team at swirl to, to execute on that. And at the time, we had never done anything like that as an agency. I was on social media. I was hired to be a social media strategist.

So I was currently at swirl working on different client projects and kind of like on a project by project basis when they needed, social elements like, like influencers or some kind of, social oriented activation to go along with a broader campaign. And so Katie approached me and said, would you want to work on this and help me lead this?

You would have to come over full time and dedicate all of your time to Microsoft. And then like, help me come up with the process of how we would develop social content on a weekly basis and then help me hire and build a team to do this. And I was really nervous. I was I mean, I was nervous because we didn't I've never done that.

And I was nervous because every opportunity you're given as a marketer, it opens doors, but it also closes doors, if that makes sense. So by, specializing and really focusing on one client, you know, I was losing the opportunity to maybe work on a really cool project for another brand that I didn't even know about yet. But ultimately I decided it was worth it to, to kind of go deep and to build this out in, to figure it out with her.

And, we we did it. We won the business. We, very quickly hired an art director, a copywriter, social coordinator. We got new tools. We developed a whole, like, creative workflow to figure out how to do it.

Daniel Burstein: How in your career have you decided when to make a leap and when not to make a leap because you just said something that is so profoundly, why is there that every every time that something opens a door, it also closes another door? And I got to admit, maybe we've mentioned this a few times on how I made it marketing, but more of the discussions have been around what we were previously talking about.

Like, how do you move up to the next wrong and into the next step in your career and some of these things? But we really haven't talked about as much, like, okay, when you when you head down one pathway, maybe you're giving up another pathway which takes on a whole new meaning when you're then deciding when to take the next step in your career.

Because if we're saying yes to something. But what are we saying no to? Yeah. Is there anything you figured out? And, you know, that was much earlier in your career. You've since made several rule changes. Yeah. Figure out what doors are closing and when you're okay with that.

Nicole Sumner: Yeah. It's hard to know, but I think when I kind of going back to that gut feeling when I'm excited about something but really nervous about it, it feels like it's probably the right thing for me to be doing because it's out of my comfort zone. But something about it, just speaks to, my curiosity or my interests or what I'm really excited about about marketing.

And it's happened a couple times. The when I joined the swirl team, I had been like a broad marketer up until that point, and I chose to specialize and to go into social media at a time when this was 2014, it was coming up, but you didn't know where it was going. And I remember talking to my dad at the time, and he's like a long time, creative advertising executive.

And he was like, are you sure? Are you sure you want to do this? You want to work in social media? Is that a good idea? I decided to go for it because there was something about there was something about it that just felt exciting. And, I wanted to learn about it and figure out something new.

And it was really the best decision I made. It was like, if I look at my career track trajectory from there, that decision is what then opened the next door and then opened the next door and really led me to where I am today.

Daniel Burstein: Like, I remember that movie Sliding Doors. I don't know if there. So that one little decision, it's like, where else could you be now if you didn't take it, who knows what you'd be doing, right?

Nicole Sumner: It's true. I don't know what I could be. I could be doing lots of different things and marketing.

Daniel Burstein: You'd be a data analyst somewhere.

Nicole Sumner: So, yeah, who knows?

Daniel Burstein: All right. So again, we've talked a lot about this career progression. I like you mentioning, okay, some of the decisions you make in your mind, but this last lesson is really a lesson to say, like, hey, sometimes you also just got to go for it. The lesson is you can't be upset over an opportunity that you don't raise your hand for.

And you learn this from Hilary Benjamin, the CMO at Alli. So how did you learn this from Hilary?

Nicole Sumner: Yeah. So Hilary, this is I'm lucky that this is my second time working for Hilary. She was also, a boss, a boss of mine at backcountry for a couple of years before she came to Alli. And at that time, I had been a manager and a senior manager for a number of years. And I was at that point in my career where I just, I really wanted a director title.

And, someone on our team left, and the brand director role became available. And at the time, it was it was funny because the woman who was leaving kind of came to me and said, I think you should go for the role. Like I think of all the people on our team, you know, even though I had been so that at that time I had been more, specialized in social media, and this would have broadened my expertise, and I would have had to take on a number of different, functions under brand at the time.

And it was kind of one of those moments where it made me really nervous that I really wanted it. The problem was, I didn't apply for the job. I just kind of talked to a couple people about it and they knew I wanted it. I never told Hilary that I wanted the job, I didn't apply for it. And then a couple of weeks later, we had a one on one and she told me that she had found someone that she previously worked with, and they were going to come in and take the job, and she kind of changed.

She changed the role a little bit. So that it, it it really made sense for this person that she brought in. And I was heartbroken. I was so upset. I was like, I wanted that job. And I didn't say that to her. But she saw that I was upset and I and she asked, she's like, are you upset about it?

What's going on? And I told her that I would have liked to be considered for the job. And what she said really stuck with me. And she's like, well, how was I supposed to know that you didn't apply for the job? You didn't tell me you wanted the job. So I moved on and I made a decision. And it really stuck with me because I think we do that a lot, where you kind of get in your head and you think about, like, this is what I want to do.

I want to do that next. Maybe you tell your friends, which is great, but if you don't actually put yourself forward and go for it the way you're going to get it, you might not get the job, but there's absolutely no way that you're going to get it if you don't, actively put yourself forward.

Daniel Burstein: And I think that job, that role is akin to the role you currently have. Yes. It's the same boss, essentially, right?

Nicole Sumner: Yes.

Daniel Burstein: So so did you like, learn that lesson in this time? You're like, all right, Hillary, let's sit down. We got to talk because I want that role, your new place or how that worked for me.

Nicole Sumner: Well, you know, this goes back to the the first lesson I learned was in the next in the two years that passed between when I really when I wanted the job and didn't go for it. And then I was brought on to Ali. I really did the work to, make sure that I, I became more well-rounded. I, I raised my hand for new opportunities.

I really built my confidence so that then when the opportunity came up and Hillary was like, Ali's a startup, so it's a small team. So as she was building out the team and it came time to build out the brand team, she I mean, she knew me. She trusted me from my time working with her. But she also saw how I had grown in those two years that we didn't work together.

And so she approached me and it was, it was just the right. It was the right time and the right opportunity.

Daniel Burstein: So you didn't you didn't raise your hand this time.

Nicole Sumner: I didn't raise my hand this time.

Daniel Burstein: So she gave you advice, which actually wasn't true because she reached out. Yeah, it was because I'm sure she remember two years ago you talking about it? And she was thinking, hey, I think this would be a good fit.

Nicole Sumner: Yes.

Daniel Burstein: Before I let you go, you said something really piqued my interest. You said your dad worked in creative advertising, and I wonder if there's any lessons you learned from your dad, either because you went into this field and directly talked to you, or just sometimes growing up around something. It just kind of seeps into our pores. Because for me personally, my parents did not work in this field.

And so the conversations I have had them were more like, wait a minute, you get paid to think of ideas? How is that a real job? You're joking. I think it's so cool to be in the same industry as your dad's. Was there anything like you can do tribute to, like, learning from him, from growing up with that?

Nicole Sumner: Yeah, I think so. He, he worked for a major advertising agency out of Detroit. And so I grew up, and I always, I always thought his job was really cool. If you got to make commercials and he, had, like, posters of different ads he'd done all over our house, and he was always making notes on them.

This is before everything was digital. And you got to, you know, travel to cool places to, to make, to make commercials. Like I said. And the way that he would talk about what he did always sounded really interesting. And I actually, I, I kind of got into advertising by chance. I didn't I didn't plan to get on that path.

And then as soon my, my first job out of college ended up being a small boutique advertising agency. And that kind of got me on the path to marketing and creative and brand as I am today. And it's been fun because over the years I get to talk to my dad about like, hey, this is what I'm working on.

And he kind of pokes holes in it and asks me questions about, well, what are you really trying? Like, who are you really targeting? And are you connecting with them enough? And what are you what do you think about this? So it's been really fun as I've gotten to move along my career to have him, to bounce ideas off of and to share my work.

And like, he unders, he really understands what I'm doing. And I do think I look back on that, and I think that, I'm sure it kind of seeps into my subconscious. And when I went to college, my marketing class and business school was the only thing that I was really interested in. I didn't like finance or accounting.

I just couldn't see myself, working in spreadsheets all day. And I think I think it did, in some ways inspired me to get onto the career path that I've been on.

Daniel Burstein: That is a very sweet thing to get to talk shop with your dad. That is great that my daughter is in going into public health, and so normally we have nothing in common. But she worked on this data science project. So for a short time we had that little overlap where she was working on data science and it was so much fun.

I think I gave her too much feedback sometimes because towards the end she show me stuff. Me like, I just want to show you unmade. I don't need feedback. So we've talked about all these different things, about what it means to be a marketer from all your lessons and all your stories. Nicole, if you had to break it down, what are the key qualities of an effective marketer?

Nicole Sumner: So I think, the number one, quality, I think is being proactive and especially early in your career. So no one is going to tell you how to do your job. No one's going to give you step by step directions. And I think the best marketers that I've worked with now is a manager and a leader are the people who just we'll we'll figure it out.

They'll ask questions, but they'll do research. They'll ask specific questions as they are trying to figure something out. And I think just jumping in and starting to do something instead of having that feeling of, like, I don't know where to start, what do I do? I think that that is really important.

Daniel Burstein: Well, thank you for sharing all the stories from your career, from where you started to where you are now. Nicole, it was a pleasure. I learned a lot from it.

Nicole Sumner: Thank you. So great to be here. It's a really great conversation.

Daniel Burstein: And thanks to everyone for listening.

Outro: Thank you for joining us for how I made it and marketing with Daniel Burstein. Now that you've got an inspiration for transforming yourself as a marketer, get some ideas for your next marketing campaign. From Marketing Sherpas extensive library of free case studies at Marketing sherpa.com. That's marketing rpa.com and.