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SUMMARY:
I talked to Renee Miller, Founder and Executive Creative Director, The Miller Group, about emotional storytelling, customer insight gathering, and second chances. |
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I would never read so much text. This is long and boring to me.
Versions of this have been said to me throughout my career from designers. And not to pick on designers, but I really don’t care. Because they weren’t the ideal customer for the product. So of course they weren’t interested in the copy.
Like my old boss Mike Morgan used to tell me – you never read the refrigerator ad on page 3 of the newspaper…until your fridge breaks.
So when I came across this lesson in a podcast guest application, it grabbed my attention – ‘You don’t have to like it. You aren’t the target.’
To hear the story behind that lesson, and many more lesson-filled stories, I invited on Renee Miller, Founder and Executive Creative Director, The Miller Group.
Tune in to the full episode using this embedded player or by clicking through to your preferred audio streaming service using the links below it.
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Miller’s first job out of college was the night shift as a rookie police reporter for The Arizona Republic – the absolute farthest job she could get from her journalism training as a lifestyle and entertainment reporter. (Her gut said RUN. Her brain said: You need a job.)
Imagine: a 5'2", 21-year-old kid from Ohio with no sense of direction (GPS hadn't yet been invented), a police scanner in her rental car and two walkie talkies (one from the police department, one from the newspaper) working in a crime-ridden city without an ounce of skill? Suffice to say, The Arizona Republic didn't "scoop" any other news outlets.
In fact, Miller was the last reporter to the scene of any crime in nearly every instance; in some cases by minutes and others by hours (she ended up so lost once, she drove to another city while the police beat reporter screamed repeatedly into the walkie talkie: "WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU? AND WHERE IS MY STORY?") The job lasted just six months before she was fired.
In her mid-20s, after working two years in the marketing department of a major metropolitan hospital in Los Angeles County, Miller decided to open a PR agency focused on healthcare. One of her first employees was as ambitious as she was and the two of them were in relentless pursuit of media exposure for their clients and new business for the company.
They landed a huge, two-year project for Blue Cross of Southern California, and dozens of assignments from hospitals in the area. They said ‘yes’ to everything and everyone and found themselves being exceedingly resourceful. Clients were thrilled and so was she. (P.S. This job was much more fun than working for the Arizona Republic.)
When asked how she gets things done now as an agency owner, Miller discussed working with the right talent for the job, whether that’s people who are directly on staff, or people she knows and brings in. For example, Greg Collins was instrumental in devising a campaign for the Salvation Army grounded in a universal truth about second chances.
Ever since Miller was eight years old, she was taught that giving an outrageously good experience leads to satisfied customers. She touched on that influence of entrepreneurship from a young age, humorously referencing comedian Sebastian Maniscalco's bit about being encouraged to start a business at eight years old, illustrating the early roots of creativity and self-motivation.
She had set up a lemonade stand and her business offered glasses taller than the other kids. Plus, her business threw in things like a free homemade cookie or brownie with two or more glasses of lemonade. And they always made sure theirs was freshly squeezed and ice cold – not some powder out of a jar.
She still lives by that philosophy today.
via Bill Williams, Director of Client Services at The Miller Group
Williams has been with The Miller Group for 18 years. He has been given the title, "the smartest person in the room" by the team, and even clients. He's a fabulous listener, and an even better problem solver. He's gracious, respectful and sincere. Clients and staff alike respect him and love working with him.
Williams has taught Miller how to be collaborative, challenge clients in a way that's respectful, listen more carefully, be modest, and how to come up with solutions when faced with challenging and baffling issues.
via Stan Waldman, the former president of The Wolf Range Company
Waldman was one of her very first clients. He was strong-willed, but always fair. When Miller presented their first ad campaign, he said calmly: "I don't like the work." And Miller said to him: "You don't have to like it. You aren't the target." And he said: "Fair enough. If it works, you won't hear another word from me. If it doesn't, I'll be looking for another agency." "Fair enough," Miller said.
They tested prints ads in a regional California magazine with an offer for a Wolfgang Puck cook booklet and received 800 to 1,000 mailed reply cards in response.
The work produced results beyond both of their expectations and Waldman and Miller remained friends long after he retired and Wolf was acquired by SubZero.
via Amanda Cooper, transformational coach
Cooper has taught Miller the importance of work-life balance, and most important, self worth. Miller now has the clarity to see that the success of her business is directly correlated with her self-worth, the value Miller places on herself, her skills, and her abilities. The more Miller values herself, the more likely she is to make good decisions, take calculated risks, and ultimately succeed in her business goals. It’s her foundation for building stronger relationships with clients, employees, and other stakeholders.
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Strategy: Don’t think of your customers as a ‘target’ to acquire (podcast episode #65)
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Not ready for a listen yet? Interested in searching the conversation? No problem. Below is a rough transcript of our discussion.
Renee Miller: It's not what you make. It's what you make possible. So don't think in terms of if you're a credit union. You're make you know you're not making loans, but you're making it possible as you're making it possible for your, 16 year old kid to drive a car, you know? So, so are you your your customer or your members, 16 year old, to drive a car.
That's what you're making possible. You're making possible an opportunity for your client or your member or your customer to buy a home, you know, so because a lot of times people in the financial services, they think of what they do versus what they make possible.
Intro: Welcome to how I made it in marketing. From marketing Sherpa, we scour pitches from hundreds of creative leaders and uncover specific examples, not just trending ideas or buzzword laden schmaltz. Real world examples to help you transform yourself as a marketer. Now here's your host. The senior Director of Content and Marketing at Marketing Sherpa, Daniel Burstein. To tell you about today's guest.
Daniel Burstein: I would never read so much text. This is long and boring to me. I've heard versions of this throughout my career, from designers and not to pick on designers, but I really don't care because they weren't the ideal customer for the product. So of course they weren't interested in the copy. Like my old boss Mike Morgan used to tell me, you never read the refrigerator ad on page three of the newspaper until your fridge breaks, because I need care.
So when I read this lesson in a podcast guest application, it grabbed my attention. You don't have to like it. You aren't the target to hear the story behind that lesson and many more lesson filled stories. I invited on Rene Miller, a founder and executive creative director at the Miller Group. Thanks for joining me, Rene.
Renee Miller: Thanks, Daniel. Good to be here.
Daniel Burstein: All right. So let's take a quick look at your background so people know who I'm talking to. Rene started her career in newspapers with internships at The Plain Dealer and Cincinnati Enquirer before being hired as a full time journalist at the Arizona Republic. She moved into our industry when she got her job as an associate director of marketing at Torrance Memorial Medical Center, and she founded the Miller Group, 34 years ago.
That is some staying power in an industry that doesn't always have it right. Rene manages a 12 person team at the Creative Boutique with another 15 of her special projects. So Rene, give me a sense. What is your day like as the founder in the OECD?
Renee Miller: Daniel, there's no one, cookie cutter day. Everything is different all the time. We work, we work, we work, we work remote. We've been doing that even before Covid. There's a core group of us in Los Angeles. We have people in as far away as Israel. Our programmer works in Israel, Texas, Asheville, Chicago, New York. So?
So we meet all at once a week on zoom, if not more. And, and and every day is different. And there's and I work on the weekends, so that's, and I do it. I spend a lot of time looking at fabulous creative work from other people, because I know it motivates me and motivates my team.
Looking at what, the innovators are doing, marketing innovators and, and then motivating my team to be as to be excellent. That's my job.
Daniel Burstein: Perfect. Well, we have a lot of marketing innovators here and how I made it in marketing and your latest. So let's take a look at some of the lessons from some of the things that you have made in marketing. As I said before, never really done any other career, but I don't feel like other people like it. They don't get to make things like we do, right?
If you're an actuary or a podiatrist or whatever about making things. But you actually start outside of marketing. You started in the newspaper industry, like I mentioned, and I always loved bringing up those newspaper backgrounds. That's why I even brought your internships. So I think newspapers I had a dabbled a very little very early in my career.
It's just such good prep for marketing because you learn how to tell a good story. You learn how to find them and tell them. But you said to my own self, be true. And it sounded like that newspaper career didn't go so well when you started. So you want to tell us about starting out as a rookie police reporter for the Arizona Republic?
Renee Miller: Okay, so I was groomed through my J. School journalism school career at the Ohio State University to be an arts and arts and entertainment and lifestyle reporter. And I had internships with the Cincinnati Enquirer or the Cleveland Plain Dealer, all in that area. And when I was, when I graduate, I started applying for jobs. I was offered a job at a newspaper in New York at a small Dow Jones paper where I would have been the arts editor, traveling in in Middletown, New York, traveling into the city every week to do film reviews.
And I turned it down to go to the Arizona Republic as what I thought would be a general interest reporter. And, I got a phone call. It was sight unseen. The guy said, we're bringing on six rookies. If you're interested in the job, come out at your own expense and, you start in two weeks. And, he was kind of a cowboy or somebody you call sort of a shin kicker.
Very, strange interview. And, I don't know, I was in my early 20s, so it sounded like a I'd never been to Arizona, and, he put me on police beat, and I had a may. I'm five two, and I had a my, boss was about my size, a very, irascible Polish guy. And he would constantly be screaming at me, where's that story?
Where's that story? I had to this is pre-internet, so I would I had two police, scanners in my car. I had a radio strapped to me at all times. And I, by the way, have the worst sense of direction. Ask anybody, you know, and, and so he would be, asking me to go to, all these sites where a murder took place or, you know, suicide, drowning.
And here I am, fresh out of school with no experience at all, trying to find my way. Half the time I would get lost because it was a new city. I didn't know where I was going. No maps. And it was a very harrowing experience. And I think I really learned how to be a crafty, because I knew that if I didn't get the story, and I was, I was more scared of my boss, and I was of the police or, you know, I was working with.
So that gives you an idea.
Daniel Burstein: So the lesson to my own self be true. Assume like that was not the best fit for you, which I agree. I think that's a really good career lesson for all of us. But it brings up another question, another point how do you make sure you, as marketers, how do we make sure we aren't too focused on ourself, but we put the customer first with our marketing?
I wonder if you have any specific examples of figuring that out, because, for example, when Flint McLaughlin, our CEO, and I were interviewed on Sirius XM a few years ago, I love this quote from him. He said, the marketer every day goes to work with a blind spot. That blind spot is rooted in human nature and particularly in our own self-interest.
No matter how hard we try, we are often blinded by our own self-interest. And I think that's a big challenge we have as marketers. So. So how do you stay true to yourself, Renee? But at the same time, put the customer first with your marketing. You have any specific examples of that?
Renee Miller: When you say customer, do you mean the client's consumer or do you mean the client?
Daniel Burstein: I mean the client's consumer, because I think as as sometimes, you know, you're in the agency side, we have to help the brand, not have those blind spots themselves. There's been so many times, like when I worked at an agency and you'd go into that room and I'll give you a quick example while you're thinking, right, I love this example because, you know, the founders of a company, especially when you're working with startup companies, they put their blood, sweat and tears and treasure and everything into that company.
So so they cannot see it as the company possibly can. And so I remember we do these value proposition workshops and we're working with this really cool company, have this cool patent. And at some point in the middle of a value proposition workshop, because we ask questions like if if I'm your ideal customer, why should I buyer for you?
We challenge them to try to understand why a customer would like it. At some point, the CTO gets up and he says, hold on. I want everyone to understand this one thing. Every other technology out there is a bicycle. We are a Lamborghini. And so I stopped and I said, well, you know, that might be true, but take a look at sales figures.
There's a whole lot more people to buy bicycles and Lamborghinis, right? Sometimes we just don't need Lamborghinis. So just having this great technology, that's not going to be the answer to sell your product. And again, that's that blind spot we can have where we put our own self-interest first. So do you have any examples that you can think of of how you.
Yes, we want to be true to ourselves. We want to help make sure our clients are true to themselves too. But at the end of the day, we want to put our customers first with our marketing.
Renee Miller: So, so a couple, I'll give you a couple of quick ones, for a, health care company during Covid, they were, providing, vaccines to the underserved. And that, group is very fearful. They're very apprehensive. And, you know, we wanted to give them free vaccines and we said we really need to understand and listen to them.
One thing we learned and we had to report to them is they don't want to come in because they think you're going to ask for their driver's license. And there were some undocumented people. So we said we have to be really careful and make sure that we put into any, correspondence. We're not asking for driver's license. We just ask for your name.
And the other thing we realized is that the that consumer was not trusting of a medical institution when we said, as much as you want to share with them how great it is to get vaccinated and the importance we want to do a peer to peer campaign, they need to hear it from other people in the community.
And so we created a whole peer to peer campaign of, talking to different people who did get vaccinated, why they got vaccinated, some of this was in Spanish, some of it was in English, some of it was in vastly different languages. And we, whenever possible, put the client's name at the bottom of the ad in very small letters.
It was all about getting engagement versus selling. You're not going to push people to get those vaccines. And it was really hard for the client because they just wanted to go out and say, tell them we need to get vaccinated, they need to get vaccinated, and we're going to give it to them. It's like it doesn't work. That way.
It doesn't work that way. They really want to feel safe, and they want to know that other people in their community felt safe.
Daniel Burstein: That's great because we can have the best value proposition in the world. But if we don't understand the customer's anxiety, that could be the inhibitor that stops them, right? So speaking of hospitals, you mentioned, so you worked at a major metropolitan hospital in Los Angeles County in your mid 20s, and you said the lessons you learned was say yes, then figure out how to get it done.
Tell us the story. Had to learn that.
Renee Miller: That's really interesting because, that was, my first marketing job, Torrance Memorial Medical Center and, my boss big shout out to Mark Mattson as he I had no experience as a marketer. And I really, I was leading the Arizona Republic, and I really wanted that job. And I remember he brought me out to interview and I had a list of questions for him.
He said, you are. You're so brazen. I can't believe you wanted to spend a half a day with me. And I was just going to wanted to spend an hour with you. I said it was. I really wanted that job. But, you know, I just, I learned on at the seat of my pants. I just learned, and I and I had to create a lot of my own, processes because, I realize he said, you know, just find a way to make just find a way to make it happen.
And, and so what I did a part of the job was getting, press PR for the hospital. So I set up, a mini newsroom out of my office, and I had all of the different departments reporting to me, and I call them on a daily basis. They were like my beat folks, and I call them, and I'd say, hey, anything new going on?
And we ended up getting so much press for that. You know, at the time, they'd never done anything like that before. I had to do an annual report I had, I didn't even I had didn't have a clue what to do, how to find vendors, photographers. And I just sort of and again, remember, this was pre-Internet. So, you know, you had yellow pages and white pages and, and a telephone and, and not even a fax machine at the time, maybe a fax machine, but that was it.
You had to find your way and look for people. And so I was just I've always been resourceful and tenacious and persistent, and that's kind of the way I operate my my company as well. I'm, you know, just say yes and find a way to make it make it happen. Well, no is no is not an option.
Daniel Burstein: Well, I love the beets example. How you looked at the different departments is beets. I was telling everyone listening like newspaper. That's a great background for marketing. You learn so much. But let's let's talk about your company because let's talk about the second part of that lesson, the how to get it done right and building an agency. Do you have a specific example of how you balance the creative with the execution?
Because, for example, when I interviewed John Reid, the CMO of, I identified on how I made it marketing, one of his lessons was the key to turning great ideas into successful campaigns. You need a door kicker like Hannah and Hannah was someone who made an idea happen. They had an idea to launch a bottle of Jameson into space.
That's a creative, that's an idea. But then you got to get it done, right? So building an agency, you know, those two skills don't often reside in the same people. Some of the most creative people are not the people that can execute. So when you're building or you're building your team, you have an example of how you made sure, okay, you had that creative, but you also had that discipline to get it done.
Renee Miller: Well, one thing, Daniel, that's really important. The most brilliant creative ideas. This is something I learned if the client if you're pushing the client to do something because you love it and you think it's a great idea, chances are it's going to be hard to sell in the idea. So learning how to convince a client that an idea and especially if it's a really, out there idea that they're not, may not be comfortable doing, you have to gain their trust.
And it's really important that first thing before you, launch into to engaging or selling to a client is to really make sure that you have a great relationship and that they trust you. And, and you build that by doing the things that they ask you to do, by showing up on time, by getting the work done, by if you say something is going to cost X dollars and it's going to take X number of hours, you you do you stay true to your word.
And when a client once a client trusts you, then you also you want to collaborate. You want them to feel like it's their idea, so you bring it to them. Remember when we were talking about XYZ and you said, I want to do something breakthrough. We we took that and pivoted from what you said. And here are three ideas and we'll leave it to your discretion.
I always say to I preface by saying, one of these may make you uncomfortable, and that's actually a good thing, because it means that it's a little scary. But the sometimes the most uncomfortable ideas are the ones that will really resonate with your customer or your client. And we'll test these to make sure that that they're safe and that we get a positive result.
Daniel Burstein: Let's talk about some of the uncomfortable other ideas. How do you make sure they get executed? So you I could see you personally are someone who like as you mentioned, you've got that tenacity. You can push it. But like then if you're hiring an agency, you have to multiply yourself, replicate yourself. Right. You're building out this team. So is it like, okay, we're going to build half the people are creatives and have for account people in the account.
People make sure it will get done. The creative people have the same idea or in a more boutique agency is like, no, I need to find people who have both disciplines. They need to be creative and they need to be executed too. So how do you set up your team? How do you build that team? Is it is how I'm going to divide and conquer you.
Here's the brilliant idea is here's the execution or no where boutique where small team. I need to find these well-rounded people that can do everything.
Renee Miller: So. So we're very, We wear a lot of hats. Bill Williams, who's a strategist, is also exceedingly creative. So he, helps push through ideas. And then in terms of executing, our team or our creatives execute themselves. When you're that small of an agency, you wear a lot of hats. We also have, as I mentioned, 15 people who are outside.
And so, I work with some of the best creative people. And one of our creatives is Greg, Greg Collins, who's, one all kinds of awards, and he's great. And he is actually full time with us back in 2008. And, if we have a need, a really big idea, I'll pull him in. Michael Kaiden, who has worked at Deutsche, is somebody who's one of the most insightful creatives.
And he'll come back and I'll say, Michael, we need a universal truth about something. We were working with the Salvation Army on their adult rehabilitation program, which is a drug and alcohol program, and we needed a really big idea. And Michael brought in a universal truth. And, Greg Collins came in and, came up with a brilliant idea based on that universal truth.
So, the creatives execute themselves. You know, we don't that's that's how it works. But and it's a team approach. We do a ton of digging before we go back to the client with ideas. Really getting the biggest insight and the biggest, you know, biggest, I don't want to say idea, but,
Daniel Burstein: Truth, I like the words. When you said truth before.
Renee Miller: Universal truth. The universal truth. Yeah. And before we go into even sharing concept, we want to make sure the client tracks everything. So first thing would be consumer research coming back to them with the with the findings. We take them through a process. So there so when we show creative they're nodding yes because they've been through the process versus hey here's an ad.
What do you think it's always yeah.
Daniel Burstein: And what are those options.
Renee Miller: Yeah.
Daniel Burstein: Well yes. What would. Yeah. So I mean what we want to get to is that execution. So I feel like that's where a lot of creatives can fall down is the ability to execute or not execute. And how do you balance that. And so I like as a small team you said, well look we're going to have to wear a lot of hats or we're going to have to figure this out.
But you also mentioned when your lessons to provide an exceptional experience, and it sounds like that's what you're trying to do. You said you first learned this when you were eight years old selling lemonade.
Renee Miller: Oh, so you know, I there's a there's a, funny, there's a comedian, Sebastian Maniscalco, I can't remember. I'm butchering his name, but I.
Daniel Burstein: Love to go. Yeah.
Renee Miller: So let's go. Oh, yeah. His dad hits him on the head at eight years old and goes, you're eight. Go, go start a business like that. Sort of sounds like my family, you know? What are you doing? Your eight years old. Start a lemonade. Start thinking about what you can do to start saving money for college, you know?
And so, I just one of the things I did was a lemonade stand, and, you know, and everybody else in the neighborhood did it. It wasn't that creative. And ultimately, I ended up doing plays in my, my dad built this playroom, and so I bring people down and charge them to do plays. And that's kind of when I started, first started being creative.
But because the lemonade stand, what I had to do to be competitive was, this is where I learned value added, you know, so you charge the same thing everybody else charges. But value add, you get a homemade cookie or a popcorn ball or two glasses for the price of one. You know, it's all this. This was the seat of my pants.
I you know, my dad was an entrepreneur and I grew up with a whole bunch of entrepreneurs, but it was kind of like, oh, okay. And even with the even with the plays that I did in my basement, you know, my, my little brother who's ten years younger, would be he he'd be the star because everybody he'd like fall down and everybody's satisfied of the show and he'd be crying.
And they thought it was really funny, but, you know, and then they'd get a popcorn ball when they left. So, you know, it's things like thinking beyond just, the it's an experience. Everything's an experience and everything. Extra value. What are you getting for this? You know, what's what's the value you're giving it? I, we always say this to clients.
It's not what you make. It's what you make possible. So don't think in terms of if you're a credit union, you're you're making, you know, you're not making loans. What you're making possible is you're making it possible for your, 16 year old kid to drive a car, you know, so are your, your, your customer or your members, 16 year old to drive a car.
That's what you're making possible. You're making possible an opportunity for your client or your member or your customer to buy a home, you know, so because a lot of times people in the financial services, they think of what they do versus what they make possible.
Daniel Burstein: Well, let's talk about what we make possible digitally because I like I love the lemonade stand example. But one advantage to having a lemonade stand is that interactivity. And you can learn from the customer. So do you have any examples of, you know, digitally understanding the customer and creating a great experience? So for example, I wrote a case study about how Pizza Hut drove a projected $7.8 million annualized uplifting revenue just from one AB test because they figured out just the CTA wasn't clear.
Right. And that that just experience was off because the CTA wasn't clear if it was, a lemon stand in person or that in-person pizza shack, they'd figure that out before they lost that much money. Right. But online, it's not always clear. So do you have any examples I did of maybe a digital lemonade stand or different examples online of how you, you know, discovered what the customer wanted so you can create that exceptional experience.
Renee Miller: So are you talking about like a creative digital creative campaign or. Sure.
Daniel Burstein: Any anything online. Because like I said, the challenge with digital that it's great creating those in-person human experiences, but we can interact either we've got sales folks there, have the small company with ourselves. We are hopefully we are human beings. We could read other human beings. We talk to them. We ask things, we learn from them. But now we put up this digital screen.
We've got this challenge. So yes, we've got these analytics or whatnot. We can actually talk to customers. And so sometimes we've got this experience that really underwhelmed is not an exceptional experience because we don't understand the customer. So do you have any thoughts of like how you've understood the customer to create a great digital experience?
Renee Miller: So I'll give you an example. One of the things, as I mentioned, Salvation Army, we were taxed with raising money for this, this division that was, overshadowed by the fact that it was Salvation Army and nobody had heard of r c and it was kind of vague. But what we learned from the customer was, what what, resonated with, actually, what?
They weren't the customer, the donor. What resonated was, we're giving people is Salvation Army is giving people a second chance. And we had a whole campaign online and and in person. But the online campaign was this giant digital red board where people could actually sign, share an experience of what it was like getting a second chance.
And we had hundreds and hundreds of people, they could actually share their experience and then either donate or not. But it was an opportunity to for them to engage online and talk about what it meant to have a second chance in life. This is all about the consumer, not just about the client. And it really resonated it really.
Some of those stories they shared with us were so poignant and so touching, and it was the the board was open to anybody who wanted to share a story. We monitored it because we didn't want anybody to, you know, get, say anything that wasn't appropriate. So we asked them to share with us, and then we post. 99% of the people were respectful and did a really nice job and, and posted really meaningful and wonderful stories.
And, and that's a way to touch people digitally.
Daniel Burstein: Oh that's great. Yes. I mean, essentially is taking something that would be a human interaction and then amplifying it with the digital. Well, those there's some lessons from some of the things Renee Main that's we talk about in the first half of the episode. In the second half of the episode, we're going to talk about some lessons from the people Renee made it with.
But first, I should mention that the how I Made It in Marketing podcast is underwritten by Mic Labs. I, the parent organization of marketing Sherpa, joined our CEO Phillip McLaughlin for Get Productive with AI on Wednesday, November 20th at noon eastern time. There is no cost. To learn more and register at McLeod's i.com/get productive. That's Mech Labs ai.com/get productive so you can get productive with AI.
All right Renee let's take a look at some of the lessons you learned from people you collaborated with. You mentioned this person previously. We were talking Bill Williams, director of client services at the Miller Group. You said you learn from Bill. Be modest. That's not something we often see in this industry. So how do you learn that from Bill?
Renee Miller: He is the quintessential anybody who's he's been with the agency for over 18 years. And anybody who knows him knows he's incredibly respect. Bill, we've had some, new business meetings where we get off and we're just going, and he's so respectful. He really listens. He, puts the client first, and he'll always, he'll always say, I hear you and help, but.
And always bring his point of view. If he feels like, what the client saying may not be truth or not. Not necessarily truth, but not, efficient or effective. And, and he's he listens carefully and he really cares a lot. And, he's got a lot of. I'm from the Midwest. He's from the Midwest. A lot of our teams from the Midwest, what they call good Midwestern values.
And, and I think that's important, because there are a lot of companies that don't that don't work like that. And, and he's, he, he's taught me, you know, just just listen and just show up and it's, we're there to get results, are there to help our clients and and do the best job we can.
And, And he does. He's very he's he's good with, you know, it's tricky. A good account person is, some account people have just the agents. It's just the client in mind, and they don't listen to the agency. Some account people have the agency. Just the focus of the agency. And don't listen as much to the client.
He has a good balance. He really does balance it out. And that's important.
Daniel Burstein: Well, do you have a specific example of how to balance that out. So because I could see you know definitely that's a struggle we all face. I mean I remember sometimes for example we sold you know, we had marketing summits and we sold sponsorships and we had, sales person selling sponsorships who was a little overly aggressive.
And so he, you know, I'd been there longer. He wrote to one of the big, you know, marketing company, a sponsor like, I will fight for you. I will we will fight this content team. And, you know, we'll get you whatever you need, because, of course, you know, on the content side, we're making sure it's balance. We're serving the audience.
We want to support the sponsors too. But of course, I've been doing this many years. I knew them personally. They reached out to me and they're like, what do they need to fight for? We work well together. So it's like, you know, bringing in that attitude of, like you said, it's like, okay, either fighting for one or the other versus coming up with that balance, I don't know.
Do you have any specific stories you can think of, of like, a time when you and Bill or had the had to figure out that balance and how you navigated that?
Renee Miller: I think one of the things, he was we had a very strong, personality at the Museum of Latin American Art, the founder, and, super outspoken. He was a originally a physician. He put a lot of money into the museum. Doctor. Gum binder is since passed away, but it was basically his way or. No way.
And Bill, I, I watched how Bill, ingratiated himself with the doctor, and that's tough because this doctor could, you know, easily call bullshit. Excuse my language. And Bill stood up to him. But he was also very respectful of him. He listened and he stood up. And I think that's really the doctor really appreciated that. And we ended up doing some wonderful work with that, client because the doctor felt respected, but he also felt protected.
Same thing with, there was a credit union called a credit union. And, the, the bill. I saw how Bill worked with the CEO. He said, you know, what is it about us? You know, we need to find out what what is it about us that's different? And why? Why is the other provider or competitors doing better, or why are we, you know, what is it about us that that makes us shine?
And what we learned was that, folks who were at a credit union really felt like, the credit union had their back. And this is what we learned in research. So how Bill explained it to the, CEO and the marketing director was, was to take the research and share and, and do a report. But to bring it back to the bottom line is people feel like you've got their back.
And and this is why it's good for the credit union. And here's how we're going to approach this. And and, and and they listened because they respected him and because he listened to them as well. And he, you know, it's it's a collaborative give and take, effort.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. Absolutely. So when we talk about that collaborative give and take effort, sometimes the client pushes back too much. Sometimes they have that blind spot. And we need to kind of stand up for the customer, so to speak. So I love this next lesson you give because as I mentioned at the top, I've had this so many times in my career, I mentioned designers.
But yeah, it really comes from everywhere. You don't have to like it. You aren't the target. I love that you said you learn this, when working with Stan Waldman, the former president of the Wolff Range Company. So can you tell us how you learn this?
Renee Miller: Yeah, that's a great. Okay, so I was this was one of the very first accounts I ever landed, and I was still in my 20s. I knew very little about the business. And, this was at the time, Wolf, the commercial side of Wolf business. This is way back when was like a 25 or $30 million company, very, very well-respected, commercial cookware.
And they knew commercial cookware inside out, but they didn't really know much about consumer cookware. And they were moving into that space and hired us. And, we did. I brought in an award winning team to come up with a campaign which, it was all based in brilliant research done by a guy by the name of Spike Bragg, who's no longer here, but really insightful, brilliant work.
And the campaign was all about the what differentiated Wolfe from everybody else is, unlike the other, high end commercial, style ranges, Wolfe truly was the finest commercial range found in the best hotels and restaurants in the world. And the campaign worked toward that, and it was just phenomenal. And so so when I showed it to Stan, and this was back in the day before I was learned how to sell good work, and he said, I don't like it, I don't like it.
And I really I my heart was pounding and I said, oh my God, I'm going to get fired. That was the first thing I'm going to get fired. And I so I but I stood up because I knew it was good work. And I said, you and I don't have to like it. We're not the we're not the customer.
I said, but your consumer has to like and and I said, I'll, I'll tell you what I said. If it doesn't work, I'll, I will take full responsibility. Yes, you bet you will. I'm going to I'm going to let you go. And and that was and and you know, his distributors, some of them like the campaign, some of them didn't like the campaign as retailers never had seen work come out of Wolf.
And so, the campaign came out and at the time we were doing bounce back cards. You would never do that today. Bounce back cards and magazines. And, it was a we tested a regional ad and one of the California magazines, and we had about 800 or 1000 cards came in. The offer was learnable. Let us tell you about wolf ranges, and you'll get a little, Wolfgang Puck cookbook.
But the client had all these cookbook plates. He didn't know what to do with them. I said, well, let's give them away. And so after that first ad came out and the response and his marketing director said, what am I supposed to do with all these leads? I said, work. And then after that, we agreed that he was going to keep us on and we stayed for, I think, 8 or 9 years until the company was sold.
So, it was a scary time. But I, like you said, stay true and just, if an agency doesn't have conviction, you know, you can't. You have nothing to stand on. You have to have the conviction to believe that it's going to work. That's what I'm here for.
Daniel Burstein: Here, let me ask you that. You mentioned research generically. So how did you learn what the customer would want? So for example, I interviewed Jennifer Kim, the executive strategy director and partner at 21st Century Brand, on how I made it marketing. One of her lessons was, don't think of your customers as a target to acquire. Think of them, that you want to invite them to participate in something with you.
And she talked about launching BMW s first electric vehicle back in 2010 when, you know, and so the challenge back then is it had a lot of limitations. If they were just trying to sell it as any other car, I'd be very limited. But they realized they kind of, you know, did a lot of focus groups for the audience.
They realized that the audience wanted to be part of something with BMW, want to feel like explorers with BMW on, to feel like they were doing something new so they didn't have to sell on the features and functions. They more sold it as, hey, come along with us and let's figure out this new thing called electric vehicles. So for your discovery, sharing the Wolfgang Puck cookbook, let's and like what you mentioned research generically.
How did you learn what the customer wanted? How are you so confident of that to put your your account on the line, so to speak?
Renee Miller: The budget was very modest. We couldn't afford to do groups so like brag. And I literally went to, retailers and, and sat with them and watched them sell product. We tried selling on ourselves. We talked to consumers who were at stores and and dropped on their conversation, listened to what they had to say. We ask them questions.
Hey, you know what? What do you what do you like about this equipment? We some people volunteered that. Who who bought equipment to talk to us. And one thing that we learned was, a lot of celebrities were buying this equipment. We were trying to think, what? Why? If they don't cook, what does it mean to them if it's subsequently became a status symbol?
But why? Wolf? Like, they could get a Viking. They could get any other product. Why did they pick Wolf? And what we learned was they a lot of these high profile celebrities had people cooking for them. And those people worked in the restaurant industry and they knew Wolf. So they said, geez, if it's the same wolf that I worked on at such and such restaurant or hotel, I want it in the house.
And they suspect that it wasn't the celebrity. So in one case, I love this story. We went to a retailer and he shared this really pathetic story. He said a couple came in and a beat up old car, and they were in a really high end area of California, somewhere in the Bay area. And, no one and none of the people, the salespeople in his shop wanted to work with them because the car was all beaten up and, you know, they seem like kind of average folks, tire kickers.
And so, I guess one of the gals who works at, I'll go call on them and, within a half an hour, she sold one of the most expensive ranges. And the reality was they were saving their money. They didn't care about their car. So the woman was going to become a cook, a chef, and she wanted that equipment in her home.
And it's such a great story because people don't. You got to pay attention to everybody and you got to hear everyone's story. And that was a great thing. A jumping off point for us because because it became this equipment is the finest equipment for people who love cooking. And if you love cooking and you want to cook like Wolfgang Puck, this is the equipment to buy.
Daniel Burstein: Well, let me ask you about that while I've got you, because you are my target in a sense. And we were talking about this when we got on. So obviously my target is the marketers and entrepreneurs. We serve with what we publish. But another target I have is the sources we publish. We wouldn't have marketing, sure, but if we didn't have sources and you mentioned something to me as and you were quoted in a marketing article 12 years ago, you said, but what was that like?
Tell me about my target. What was that experience?
Renee Miller: Yeah, that was great. It was maybe 12, maybe 15 years ago. I, I don't know if you all contacted me or I contacted you, but you were looking for a resource to talk about affluent marketing, marketing to the affluent. And, I gave you a quote, and, it appeared in the marketing Sherpa newsletter, and, afterwards, I got, at least a half dozen marketers contacting me to talk about affluence marketing.
So was it really interesting? And ironically, I think it was something to do with Wolf as well. So,
Daniel Burstein: Yeah, there you go. You're getting a lot of mileage out of the wolf stories. I'm glad to hear it. All right, one more lesson here. You mentioned the more you value yourself, the more likely you are to take calculated risks. And you learn this from Amanda Cooper, a transformational coach. How did you learn this from Amanda?
Renee Miller: So I do a, it's a it's a closed group. It's a networking group. And it's women who are business owners who want to, increase our revenue and become more successful. And, her philosophy is take a, we are the most important people. So be be true to ourselves, take stock of what we have and what we're good at, and really focus on that.
And each week we meet, on a Saturday for about 45 minutes. We share our stories and, and she helps us be our best selves and, you know, and just hearing from other women business owners, I'm also, in we Bank women business economic Council. It's, women certified women certified program. For women business owners.
And we I hear a lot from, women business owners. We tend to be a little bit more, not not always as confident as our male counterparts. So having other women who can share their stories as well helps us uplift our own, helps us uplift our spirits as well. You know, when you hear it, when you, you know, as the owner of a company, it can be very lonely.
But when you hear from other women who are in the same situation with much, much bigger companies feeling the same way, there's that, there's that, sense of realizing, wow, I'm not alone. There are other people who are experiencing the same thing.
Daniel Burstein: Hopefully everyone listening is getting that experience to hearing you say this now. But can you give us a specific example of how that that lesson to value yourself more affected a specific decision in your business? So, for example, I interviewed Marco Mueller, the CMO of a Viva, on how I made it a marketing. And one of his lessons was, you can make a big career and still stay human.
And he told the story of when he led a marketing for Russia on the six countries for SAP. The CMO of all of SAP visited him in Moscow, and unfortunately were going to go to a bunch of meetings. Unfortunately, those few days, there were some public events going on, horrible traffic so the car wouldn't work. It couldn't get a helicopter because, you know, just the Russian elite could get or whatever.
And so the CMO turned to him and in the moment said, what do we do, Marco? And he said, well, we could take the subway, but, you know, there's no air conditioning. It's crowded. Security concerns. And the CMO was like, let's go. And so they went and they found all their meetings in Moscow taking the subway. And he said he felt like, oh man, I'm getting fired for this or whatever.
There's so much trouble. But the CMO had this great attitude of like, hey, that was fine. If you found a solution. It was fun. We did it. And it kind of there was that story click and him of like, hey, you, this guy's the CMO of all of SAP. He could be this human. I can be this human with everything too.
And so for you, Rene, do you have any specific examples of how that that lesson of valuing yourself more as a business owner, how did that affect a specific business decision you made?
Renee Miller: So sometimes that, account just doesn't work out. And, you know, as a, as a business owner, you have to look at your revenue, but you also have to look at your folks. And if they're not happy working on something, you have to you have to stand up for them as well, because they're part of the team.
And, and valuing I think valuing yourself is really looking and saying, is this a good fit? Are we doing a good job? And sometimes sometimes you have to just turn away and say, this isn't working out. And occasionally that happens. But I think that it's really important because my philosophy is when letting go of something that isn't working and being true to yourself and valuing yourself, something better always comes through.
It may not come through the next day or the week later, but it, you know, the universe abhors a vacuum. So when you're truthful and and you tell your truth, more wonderful things happen. And I think that's, what life's all about is just telling the truth.
Daniel Burstein: And I like that. Nature abhors a vacuum. Something good is going to come in and do the right thing. Well, you've told us so many stories from your career, from selling lemonade with Bogo promotions to going around in the middle of the night in Arizona without a G.P.S., to selling Wolf Rangers to people with, beat up cars.
If you had to really sum it up, what are the key qualities of an effective marketer, in your opinion? Rene.
Renee Miller: So, I'd say adaptability. You know, the buzzword of pivoting when something isn't working, jumping to find another solution. Critical thinking is so important. Don't just take research for the sake of research, but go deeper in what is the insight? You know, we always ask why, why, why good marketer? Why are you doing that? Why are we, you know, going in this direction so really critical thinking and really understanding that, that consumer, innovation, how can you do something better?
I spend a ton of time, watching. It's called love the work. And it's put out through can Cannes Film Festival, and I probably do an hour a day. Just looking at some of the best work is being being the best you can be. And I listen to some of the top marketers, in the country, through marketing Sherpa, other channels, hearing their stories because it's motivating.
So listen, listen to those top notch folks. The cream of the crop, the 10% of the marketers who are doing a phenomenal job. What's the story you can take away? How can you be better and being better by listening to what they have to say? Leadership's importance, making sure your team, really is on board, that it's collaborative, that they trust you, that they, feel comfortable, that they feel safe.
You know, a lot of, CMO is it's it's incumbent upon them to make their folks feel as safe as they possibly can and respected, you know, employees and team members, they want to feel like you really respect them, that you listen to them and that you and that they matter, making sure that they matter and that they're heard.
I think that's super important. And then and that goes along with empathy. If someone's having a bad day, find out what the heck's going on, you know, and, and, try to get into their head and try to understand one of our, employees was just caught in this, hurricane. Helen, the, Ravagers, in Asheville.
And, she was out of power and and water and food for literally two weeks. And we kept trying to get Ahold of her and say, don't worry, we got you. You're taking care of. Let us know if there's anything we can do. Those are the kinds of things where, you people want to know that you care and that they're being they're being heard and that they're human beings and that they matter, you know?
Daniel Burstein: Well, thanks for sharing all your stories with us today. Now everyone gets to hear from this top marketer and hopefully learns a lot of lessons. So thanks for being with us today.
Renee Miller: Thank you. Down here.
Daniel Burstein: Thanks to everyone for listening.
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