Sustainable Marketing: How DC Water turns waste into wealth (podcast episode #106)

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Meet 'The Accidental Recycled Poop Marketer!'

That’s the headline of a recent podcast guest application.

And it came from someone leading marketing for an interesting product – a paid B2B and B2C product, sold by a nonprofit, that is run by an independent city government authority, a water and sewer utility formed in collaboration with the federal government.

So no matter what type of marketing you do or business you run, there’s probably a lesson for you in this episode with April Thompson, Senior Director for Bloom, Blue Drop (part of DC Water).

Blue Drop is a nonprofit organization created by DC water to generate revenue and therefore save its ratepayers money. DC Water is the District of Columbia Water and Sewage Authority. DC Water reported $898 million in operating revenues for 2023.

Thompson manages a two-person saleswoman team that has sold 65,000 tons of biosolids in its recycled poop fertilizer/soil amendment product in fiscal year 2024. Biosolids are a product most utilities pay to dispose of.

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Stories (with lessons) about what she made in marketing

Here are some lessons from Thompson that emerged in our discussion.

Marketing socially and environmentally responsible products is no different than marketing a conventional product

This has been the focus of Thompson’s career. Customers prioritize products that deliver the best performance, aesthetics, and value for their money

Example: selling a recycled sustainable wastewater fertilizer to B2B markets – they are leading with its performance (germination and coverage rates) over the fact that it's fighting climate change. Being a sustainable solution alone is not enough to win over customers.

Champion your champions

In today's marketing landscape, while many chase influencers, the true value lies in empowering passionate customers or supporters to amplify your message.

Thompson has countless examples of this in her own career in the weird world of recycled poop marketing, like:

• An influential agronomist and golf course consultant who was a fan of their product . They got the agronomist to do webinars and tours and bring in new golf course companies.
• Journalist Lina Zeldovich who was already passionate about biosolids. Thompson befriended her and promptly got Bloom a writeup from the BBC.

Quit while you're ahead; no risk, no reward

Thompson has made a few big career moves/pivot points at times she was coasting, career-wise – all but shutting down a hard-earned freelance writing business to take a year-long solo trip around the world in 1998; leaving a fantastic post overseeing marketing of a child-labor-free rug certification in the 2000s to volunteer her marketing skills in West Africa on a cashew project; turning down a secure, well-compensated position in international development to join a six-month pilot project doing something entirely new to her that turned into her current five-year role.

Lessons (with stories) from people she collaborated with

Thompson also shared lessons she learned from the people she collaborated with.

Optimism is underrated

via Chris Peot, Interim President, Blue Drop

Peot, Thompson’s current supervisor, is boundlessly optimistic (which can come off as unrealistic at times!), but she has come to see it as a driving force for change and progress in their work. There are many more nay-sayers than yay-sayers out there; be the optimistic voice and inevitably others will right-size an idea or temper it with realism, but if you start from the more pessimistic point of view you will never get there.

“It's not brain surgery on babies"

via Andre Shashaty, Publisher, Affordable Housing Finance

Shashaty was Thompson’s first-ever boss. Working in publishing can be quite stressful; when something comes out wrong in print you can't take it back. Shashaty would say "it's not brain surgery on babies" to put mistakes in perspective. You might feel like you're going to die of embarrassment or exposure when you make a public error that upsets others, but no one will die from it. At the end of the day, you learn from it and move on.

Highly successful people give more credit than they take

via Stanley Krippner

Thompson can think of more than a few examples of this (Peot, mentioned above, exemplifies this), but as a young person she had the opportunity to collaborate with Stanley Krippner on research. Krippner is an acclaimed psychologist/author/academic who is now in his 90s. He gave Thompson her first speaking opportunity and made her a co-author on an article that is still re-cited today, 30 years later.

He is wildly successful because of his own work ethic of course, but also because giving others a share of the limelight makes them want to work with you, and in turn amplify your collective work. People want to collaborate with someone who is humble (though not falsely so) and that kind of reputation will bring you more opportunities.

Discussed in this episode

Sustainable Marketing: Take the time to understand your target audience deeply and your value proposition (podcast episode #104)

Why You Should Thank Your Competitors

Customer-First Marketing: Every click is a wish (podcast episode #85)

Client Pitch Call from the Maternity Ward: “That sound? Oh, you know, the sounds of Brooklyn” – Podcast Episode #8

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Transcript

Not ready for a listen yet? Interested in searching the conversation? No problem. Below is a rough transcript of our discussion.

Daniel Burstein: So how do you compete with that when something is either so subsidized or practically free? I mean, is it is it just showing that value proposition of being a premium product and getting a better ultimate ROI because it has a better return? Or what do you do here?

April Thompson: And again, that's where knowing what your customers, you know, need and want is important. so customer service I know it sounds true, but some, you know, in some cases, because we have such a responsive sales team that are, you know, I'm, I'm drilling like every day, like, hey, you know, as soon as those inquiries are coming in, I want them responded to, and we've actually kicked off customers where someone just got frustrated because they weren't getting a timely response, and they need material to spread out on their farms today.

Intro: Welcome to how I made it in marketing. From marketing Sherpa, we scour pitches from hundreds of creative leaders and uncover specific examples, not just trending ideas or buzzword laden schmaltz. Real world examples to help you transform yourself as a marketer. Now here's your host, the Senior Director of Content and Marketing at Marketing Sherpa, Daniel Burstein, to tell you about today's guest and.

Daniel Burstein: The accidental recycled poop marketer. That's the headline of a recent podcast guest application I received, and it came from someone leading marketing for an interesting product. It was a paid B2B and B2C product sold by a nonprofit that is run by an independent city government authority of water and sewer utility formed in collaboration with the federal government. So no matter what type of marketing you do or business you run or organization you're a part of.

There's probably a lesson in here for you here to share the lessons and stories from her career. Is April Thompson, the senior director for Bloom at Blue Drop. Thank you for joining me, April.

April Thompson: Thank you. Daniel, it's great to be here.

Daniel Burstein: Let's take a look at April's background real quick so you can tell you you understand who I'm listening to. You just cherry picking off of her LinkedIn. She's worked for nonprofit organizations in Guinea, Benin, Ghana, Cote d'Ivoire, Senegal and Malawi. She's been the director of marketing and communications for Good Weave USA, and she's been a freelance writer for dozens of publications over the past 30 years.

For the past five years, April has been at Blue Drop, where she is now senior director for bloom. Blue drop is a nonprofit organization created by DC water to generate revenue and therefore save its ratepayers money. DC water is the District of Columbia Water and Sewage Authority. Do you see water reporting $898 million in operating revenues for 2023?

Thompsons two person saleswoman team has sold 65,000 tons of biosolids in its recycled poop, fertilizer, soil amendment product in fiscal year 2023. Biosolids are a product most utilities paid to dispose of. So April, this is a very interesting and unique organization, not new. I normally talk to you, but I really want to see what we can learn from you.

So give us a sense. What is your day like as senior director for bloom?

April Thompson: Yeah, sure. So I work from home four days a week. So, a lot of my, my time is spent with my sidekick Kitty. which is very important for stress relief, which we all should have in our lives. we start every day with a short standup meeting, which is really important when you're in a remote environment.

You know, just reporting on priorities and progress from the day before and for the day to come. and then I like to have with my team what we call the accountability, power half hour, where we, basically name and eat our frogs. If you're familiar with the the eating of the frogs, basically, it's that, that thing that you're kind of dreading on your to do list that is very easy to ignore and do a million other productive things, but not get off your plate.

So we, we like to, stay accountable for that. and then, from there, you know, one of the things I really love about my job is just that every day is so different. I think the other wastewater treatment plant helping lead a tour of, prospective customers or going to visit a beautiful farm or garden to take photos of, basically the results of bloom on their wonderful plants, lawns, gardens, crops.

or, you know, I might be just head down on my laptop reviewing sales calls and things like that. So that's that's a day in my life that's great.

Daniel Burstein: And it's always great to get an opportunity to to get out of the office or home office and actually see the product being made, so to speak, interact with customers. I think it makes our marketing so much better. Well, let's take a look at some of the lessons from some of the things you've made in your career. As I mentioned before, I've never been anything else.

I've never been an actuary or a neurologist or whatever, but I don't feel like they get to make things. I get to do great things or saving lives. Good for them, right? But they don't get to make things, and we do. So let's see some lessons from the things you made. your first lesson is marketing. Socially and environmentally responsible products is no different than marketing a conventional product.

How so?

April Thompson: Yeah, well, bloom is a recycled, sustainable product. we are helping fight climate change. We're restoring soils, we're helping keep water bills low, and all those things are great. But at the end of the day, a golf course wants to know, like, is this going to help me with my problem? Areas on the greens? Is it going to, you know, if we're talking a farmer, is it going to improve my yields?

Those those are the things that we're leading with. And it's it's important, of course, to distinguish yourself. And the fact that we are a recycled poop. Fertilizer is something that you know, your everyday life. Compost is not. But that's not what people are buying us for.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. And I think it should mentioned move. Please correct me if I explain this wrong. So bloom. So basically DC water has, sewage treatment plant from that they extract what is essentially human poop. I assume they do something to make that cleanliness, so. Or did not pass on disease, but then they sell it essentially as product for commercial or home uses.

Right. That's what bloom is.

April Thompson: Absolutely. We have a very sophisticated process, called thermal hydrolysis and anaerobic digestion. That's basically like a giant pressure cooker that takes the, the inflow, and cooks it at a temperature beyond pasteurization. No e-coli is going to survive that. It's built press to remove the water. The water actually goes back into the river cleaner than we took it.

and then we have this, what we call a fresh bloom, which is biosolids. that that is sort of the fancy term for recycled, wastewater solids. And then we also, we basically blend that and, do value added products from that. So we actually have a suite of products for farmers, homeowners, etc.. So we actually have several different markets that we're in simultaneously, even with the same product, which makes things very interesting.

Let's just say as a marketer.

Daniel Burstein: Well, yeah. Let me I want to ask about that as a follow up. You said that. Yeah. Okay. Well you have a product here that's a socially environmentally responsible product, but it's no different than a conventional product. However, I would think that would flow into part of your value proposition. So I wonder how do you learn about your different groups of ideal customers to message them the right messages that will be, unique value proposition in the marketplace?

And what role does the social and environmental good play? So, for example, I interviewed Kristin Stevens, a senior marketing manager for the US at the Marine Stewardship Council, and one of her lessons was, take the time to understand your target audience deeply and your value proposition. And so she talked about that. They're they've got different customers and different prospect level value propositions for those customers, whether it's the global, message they give versus the North America message, whether it's by region, whether it's by time of year.

So for you and your product, April, I get what you're saying of like, hey, even if it's socially, environmentally good, people want to know it works, right? It does. The function does of utility, and I absolutely agree with that. But it does seem like an opportunity to have something exclusive for your value proposition. So how do you learn about your different groups of ideal customers and understand when and how to use that environmentally, socially responsible piece, like in marketing or in different ways with different types of customers?

Because I'm also, I'm sure it also varies based on the customer.

April Thompson: Absolutely. And we have taken a lot of time with each of our segments to really understand what their pain points are, how price sensitive they are, how even to communicate with them. So, for example, we sell to some Amish farmers that don't even have phones. Let's say you want to talk about an interesting marketing challenge. so, you know, we we have for, for each of our segments are really, I think, deep understanding of what's important to them.

And that's, you know, that's just for that segment. And then you drill down from there, and every given customer within that segment is going to be different. So, you know, our sales people are very hands on in, you know, getting to know our prospects and what matters for them and what matters for their customers. Because in a lot of cases, it's it's not they're not necessarily the end user as well.

Daniel Burstein: That's that B2B element. Well, can you can you give us a specific example of something you do to learn from the customer? So I mean, I've definitely talked to some marketers where, hey, they're sticking to the digital, they're sticking to the analytics. They've got dashboards. They do a B testing, they've got focus groups or whatever it is. But I've also spoken to other marketers where I remember, speaking to the CMO of, fortune 500, maybe not fortune 500 of a publicly listed construction software company, multi-billion dollar construction software company.

And she talked about how she actually goes on site to construction sites, and she will literally wear the boots, and she will wear the gloves to get an understanding. And like, for example, one thing she learned that I thought was so interesting, it's like, how do you drink coffee when it's below freezing and you've got all this equipment on, you know, and she was there with, with these groups and like understanding her.

I remember talking to Merrill and, you know, she talked about Merrill, like, they sell boots and shoes and stuff like that. And she talked about going, she'd actually go into customer's homes and be able to look in their closets and ask them questions. And then, of course, there's so many different digital ways with AB testing, with data mining, with all these different things that we can learn about customers as well.

So can you think of a specific example of something you do where your organization does tech to learn about those customers, to understand? Yes. Okay. What value proposition should we communicate to them and why and where?

April Thompson: Yes. And we absolutely, absolutely do those drive bys. That's what we call them when you're going to the construction site or the farm. And again, some of these folks are really hard to reach. And you know, so we definitely will kind of meet them where they're at. but we one of the most effective, marketing tools for us has been sponsorship of industry, organization, I'm sorry, industry events.

for example, for the, the landscapers, there's the landscape contract associations, there's the, PGA, IMS, the Professional Grounds Management Association, and we will go and we will just, hear what the conversation is at those, those events. And when we started, no one had heard of bloom. Many people were unfamiliar with the concept of biosolids and now it was interesting the last time that we sponsored one of the LLCs, awards banquets, many of the awardees had use bloom on their projects, and I was able to kind of get up and talk about that.

So, you know, I'm very I'm pretty stingy with my, my marketing dollars. In fact, I actually end up often with some leftover money at the end of the year, and I say no to a lot of opportunities where we are not really, you know, having that opportunity to talk directly to those those customers in our geographic areas.

I'm, I'm really not very interested necessarily in, an audience that is, perhaps going to look good on our social media, but not necessarily directly reaching those big opportunities. Also, I really try to keep myself team focused on those, what we call our big white whales.

Daniel Burstein: Okay. And here's another lesson. you mentioned and I think this probably ties into actually going to industry events and getting close to customers and having that intimacy with them and understanding them. You said champion your champions and people are just chasing. Influencers are trying to win them over, but they're overlooking your champion. So what does that mean?

What's the difference between champion and influencer, and how do you use that?

April Thompson: a champion would be someone who's already excited about your product, using it, talking about it, as opposed to an influencer who, I guess these days we have what we call professional influencers who are not necessarily loyal to any one product or concept. and of course they can there can overlap. but, I think it's easy sometimes to overlook someone who may already be a champion in, in lieu of trying to chase, you know, some large social media following that may not even align with who you're trying to reach.

so, for example, we recently had an influential agronomist who was coming out and just saying great things about bloom, and he is influential with golf courses, very specifically. So he's not someone who's going to be hot on social media. It's not a household name that anyone else is going to know about. But he has tremendous influence in this very niche world that we're trying to reach.

So we invited him to do a webinar and talk about, you know, what he saw as the, you know, the benefits of this in his experience. And lo and behold, we got a few large golf course customers after after doing that. And we'll bring them on tours and have him bring, you know, prospects with us and I've just found that to be a lot more successful than, than trying to convert someone.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. And yeah, I think you got some good press, with this approach with the BBC as well, by finding a journalist who is already in the bio styled. How did you find that? How did you get that press?

April Thompson: Yeah. So this is a journalist, named Lina Zelda Vich, and she has done incredible work. She has a book called the The Other Dark Matter. I believe it's called. And it is all about, the history of biosolids and the promise for the environment and the soil and so much more. It even goes into fecal matter transplants and some very interesting topics.

so she had actually come and done a tour of bloom and our wastewater treatment plant even before I came on board, and I just happened to stumble onto her book and find this really great reference for bloom and reached out. And she was very excited to talk to me. And we've just stayed in touch. And every time that she's doing a piece, she'll reach out.

And, just happened to be doing a feature for the BBC and got a really great placement there. from, from having really just kind of reactivated, an existing relationship.

Daniel Burstein: What about competitors? What how do you look at competitors? What role do competitors play in enemy, not just a bloom throughout your career? Because something that struck me. You've had a long nonprofit career in nonprofits, at least. I mean, I've never been a nonprofit marketing, but I don't think of them as having competitors as other brands do. And I remember I had this conversation once that really struck me because I've worked in competitive sales office for software companies, and it's always just kind of like you work at a company, your brand is so team based.

We're going to beat those darn competitors. And I was at a conference and I was talking to a marker at some deep B2B product. I don't remember what it was, but he talked about how they had no competitors. And I was just like, you, lucky dog. You got no competitors. And he's like, no. He's like, it's horrible. And like, why would it be horrible to have no competitors?

And he's like, because you don't have a category, you don't have a line item in the budget. You know, you don't have RFP, you don't have these process. You got to do the whole thing. You got to sell the category and your brand. And so again, it just struck me that like kind of the nonprofit space was somewhat similar.

I would think, like if I don't think there's that direct competition like we have in like B2C or B2B. So for you, April, like in your career, how have you factored in competitors? We talked about champions. How do you factor in competitors to your to your marketing.

April Thompson: So there absolutely is always competition. And gosh, well, when you're talking traditional nonprofits, you are competing for, you know, for fundraising dollars for grants. but when you are in this interesting nexus of products within the nonprofit space, you know, you may be working for a nonprofit, but selling a, a product in a for profit space, bloom is an interesting space where we are competing against just, you know, your your everyday home and garden products that have been, you know, built by a traditional business, but also other government entities, some of which are selling similar things, or actually, I shouldn't say selling, they're giving it away.

and we also have are actually our biggest competitor for for bloom under like landscaping and home. Home gardening side is a product called Leaf Grow that is created by another government entity. it's basically a household leaf compost, but it has a huge name in our area. and so I'm always like scanning to see what they're doing.

And I think the challenge is that when you're competing against other governmental, entities, they're not necessarily building their their pricing the way a normal business would. So as bloom right now, you know, the, the cost of hauling, for example, is going through the roof. other entities aren't necessarily raising their price in the same way that traditional business would.

So I'm like scanning the environment, trying to figure out, like, what's the sweet spot here? How much, you know, can we afford to, you know, keep our our costs covered while, you know, not shooting ourselves in the foot with the cost sensitive or, I'm sorry, price sensitive customers who may be looking at leaf grow as an alternative and being like, oh, you know, I can get that a couple of dollars cheaper.

Daniel Burstein: Well, yeah. I mean, is Leaf Grove free that we were mentioning?

April Thompson: Not free. Okay. But what is free? for the farmers, that is the lion's share of of our sales. they have well, they have other types of biosolids that may not be as, nicely produced, let's just say. And then we have, here, in Maryland, because we serve, DC, Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, something called chicken litter, which is, actually, subsidized by the government.

That's one of the, the byproducts of chicken, chicken processing.

Daniel Burstein: So how do you compete with that when something is either so subsidized or practically free? I mean, is it is it just showing that value proposition of being a premium product and getting a better ultimate ROI because it has a better return? Or what do you do there?

April Thompson: And again, that's where knowing what your customers, you know, need and want is important. so customer service, I know it sounds trite, but some, you know, in some cases, because we have such a responsive sales team that are, you know, I'm, I'm drilling like every day like, hey, you know, as soon as those increases are coming in, I want them responded to, and we've actually picked off customers where someone just got frustrated because they, they weren't getting a timely response and they need material to spread out on their farms today.

Right. chicken litter is also an unpleasant odor. So we are promoting things like we are a very low odor product. so it, it kind of and leaf leaf grow actually sells out every year. And so I'm, I'm scanning for the moment where there's selling out because there are customers that I know. You know what. That's always going to be their go to.

That's fine. I'm not going to win them over to be their number one choice, but I know that I can pick them up that time of year where, this other product is selling out.

Daniel Burstein: That's great. That's great. I mean, the customer experience is how you have to differentiate that. Right? And and if anyone's listening to, you know, thinking like, well, it's impossible to compete with the free products, something I think about, April's work. Can I mention what your shirt says right now?

April Thompson: Straight out of the tap.

Daniel Burstein: Straight of the tap. And it just gets me thinking that water, bottled bottled water is competing with an essentially free product. Right. And they have found a way with their a better customer experience, branding whatever to compete. So I like that's a little shot back at them straight out of the tap. let's talk about a lesson from your career you mentioned.

Quit while you're ahead. No risk, no reward. So how did you live this through your career?

April Thompson: So there have been a couple of pivot points in my career where I just I felt a little listless and was just, you know, had that seven year itch ready to do something. Actually, I've traditionally had a four year itch there. There have been a few, places times in my career where after four years, I was ready to make a move.

and that beautiful high paid opportunity wasn't necessarily coming about or secure opportunity. Maybe. And I just said, you know what? Let's just shake it up and and do something different and see where it leads and know somehow that I'm, I'm probably going to land on my feet. So, early in my career, I was, I would say I was a, freelance writer back in the 90s, and I had built from the ground up and a freelance business covering things like travel and leisure and service journalism and, but I had a I.

I had a dream to do a solo trip around the world, and I just basically shuttered my business and took off for a year. And, it all worked out in that it led me to my second career in international development, and from there, the rest has been history.

Daniel Burstein: Well, I think for your it's works for someone in DC. DC seems to run on a four year cycle, so that would make sense right. let me ask you about this no risk, no reward philosophy and how you apply it to a brand. Right. Because you seem to be having a lot of fun at Blue Drop. More fun than I think.

a government entity would have. good. For example, I interviewed, Gary Stein, the CMO of virtual, and how I made it marketing. And one of his lessons was think like a challenger, right. And he worked for some very established brands, but always want to have that challenger thinking. And I see you kind of doing the same thing.

again I water and sewage utility or even a subsidiary of a water and sewage utility, I would not think to have any off kilter or tongue in cheek marketing. But for April Fools, for example, you had a campaign for sham poo poo, which would be shampoo made out of poo poo. you also had a campaign for eating recycled poop fertilizer to feed your family and your lawn all in one delivery.

so let me ask you about is this, like, how do you use that? No risk, no reward philosophy. Then when it comes to your brand?

April Thompson: Yeah, that's that's a great example. And I think. I've just been lucky to, to work for companies that allowed me to do that. And maybe you, you try it on the, on the, on the small scale and then when leadership sees, wow, this is actually working. And that people are actually loving what you're doing. They lean into it.

And so we have, I think our highest traffic web or highest web traffic day of the year is April Fool's every year. And so I've actually been given more latitude to, you know, like the that the year before last put together a more professional video than, you know, my, my first campaign was kind of more something done in my own, and, you know, my own living room, which is fine too.

You know, I think people like authenticity, especially these days. and so I think it's okay. Also, I know this is a little tangent from, from the original question, but but also to have something that does look a little homegrown, I think people appreciate that too. And authenticity for bloom has been, I think, really important. I, I try to do, little mini features of the guys at the treatment plant so that people, you know, to humanize what we're doing.

and, you know, that's that's worked for us.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. Take a small risk. If it works, you can take bigger risks and get bigger rewards like it. So we talked a lot about some of the things you made in marketing. In just a minute. We're going to talk about lessons from some of the people you've collaborated with, because that's what we get to do as marketers. We get to make things, but we get to make them with people.

But first, I should mention that the How I Made It in Marketing podcast is underwritten by Mic Labs. I the parent organization of marketing Sherpa. Right now you can get a free three month full scholarship to the AI Guild and a free quickstart AI productivity kit at joint Mic Labs ai.com to help you navigate the artificial intelligence marketing revolution that's joined Meckler, a bbs ai.com.

All right, let's take a look at, some of the people you collaborated with and what you learned from them. You mentioned Chris Pratt, the interim president of Blue Drop, and you said from Chris, you learned that optimism is underrated. How did you learn this from Chris?

April Thompson: I mean, he's he's what I call the godfather of bloom because he was the visionary that basically made this happen. And it was not only his his drive, but I think his optimism that, you know, any, any other leader going into a problem like biosolids and turning it into an asset, maybe we have not gone all in because you'd see all the potential problems and like, oh, no, but the farmers are already getting it for free.

And oh, no, we can't do away with the contractors. And, you know, there's so many holes that you could poke into what we're doing. But rather than concentrate on all of the essential problems, he saw all of the possibility. And he also made a very strong business case for it. because we're saving millions of dollars every year for the authority.

and, you know, if you if you go ahead and think big, you can find ways to, to solve the problems. I root and there are always going to be people who are going to be there to poke holes into your theories. And, and at that point, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll work through, those issues. But if you're not thinking big to start, you'll never do something like we're doing right now, to be honest.

Daniel Burstein: Well, that's a great thing that a visionary leader can do. But let me ask you, so, you know, any time in your career, if you're pitching to get budget for a campaign for a product, for a nonprofit initiative, is there any specific tactic that's worked well for you or poorly for you? Do you have any specific example of that?

I'd say, you know, for me, in my career, one of the so one of the, frequent, complaints or questions we get at marketing. Sure. But we used to do a benchmark report and it would always be, no matter who we were serving B2B, B2C, email, social, whatever it is, the number one complaint is always like, not enough budget, right?

That's what everyone complains over. Not enough budget. And so and that's a frequent question we get asked. And the thing that I've seen that tends to work best is, two things. One is having a value proposition. So it's not just when we talk about a value proposition. I think sometimes, as I mentioned earlier, like, okay, having that right value proposition for the right prospect, and we think of it as an external thing, and we forget that you need that value proposition internally too.

And you need to understand who are the different stakeholders, what's important to them, and can I show them a value proposition that, you know, by doing this, we'll get to here, we'll get to the thing you want. And here's why. You know, it's appealing to you. Here's why it's clear. Here's why it's credible. Here's why it's exclusive, why you can invest, you know, the budget and many different things, but why you should invest it in this.

But the other thing I've seen too, and to kind of reiterate what you said when we were talking about no risk reward is is figure out what the ask is, right. We talk about conversion objectives a lot in marketing. The smaller you can make that ask the better, right? If you can just pilot it. If you can just try something out because then you can get some results.

Are you talking about. And then you can get things moving towards being able to do bigger and better things. So that's what I've seen. But for April, for you, like what have you seen like like okay optimism is underrated. We go in. We're optimistic. Yeah. There's always stakeholders we have to convince whether that's, you know, the people higher up in the organization who own the budget, whether that's partner if or trying to get on board.

So what has worked for you to to get to?

April Thompson: Yes, that's a great question. And, I think what you said about, you know, piloting is good. You know, if you can kind of put your way in it and, and show some initial results, get that quick win where, where you can, you can build on that and say, hey, you know, we we tested this. We've, we've done our homework.

You know, this isn't just a hypothesis. and I think that's important too, because, you know, you don't want to go all in on something that you haven't done your homework on. and, so I think I think that's important. and again, having a backup plan I think too. So be prepared for, you know, what those objections are going to be.

It's just like in sales, you know, if you if it's great when someone is voicing an objection when you're trying to make a sale because then you know how you can counter that. And so I think it's, you know, again, as you say, thinking, thinking of all the stakeholders and thinking about what do they care about, what are they worried about, and finding ways to, to address those.

I think, you know, you've got a winning proposition.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah, exactly. And try to and try to surface those issues. To your point, it's great when they push back, you know, either pushing back if they just say no, you have no idea. here's another lesson. you mentioned Andre. Shashi Seshadri.

April Thompson: Body.

Daniel Burstein: Design Society, the publisher of affordable housing finance, who would say it's not brain surgery on babies. So what does that mean? And how did you learn that lesson?

April Thompson: Yeah. So I and I love that it's such a sticky phrase. Right. It is here. This was decades ago. I haven't talked to Andre since then. I don't even know if he's alive, but I very clearly remember him saying this. And in the context of publishing where, you know, if you if you make a mistake at this point where we're still in the world of print, you really can't retract it.

I mean, you can put something in the next issue. and I don't, frankly, recall exactly what that error was, but there one of us made some kind of, mistake in our reporting. And, you know, he he he kind of helped us take down the chin and say it's not brain surgery and babies and essentially meaning that no one is going to die from your mistake.

You may you may feel like you're going to to die of embarrassment. but it's okay to make mistakes. Mistakes are going to happen. It's how you deal with them and move on. And I think this kind of hearkens back to that. No risk, no reward. Like if you are constantly worried about making a mistake, you're not going to take risks.

and so, I, I like to really have an environment with my team where they feel okay to make mistakes, that they know that, like at the end of the day, no one's going to die from this. And I think it also. It just creates an environment to where not only people are not afraid to make mistakes, which we all know.

You have to make mistakes to to innovate and to improve, but then they're not afraid to tell you about them too, because the worst thing is where you have an environment where someone is afraid to come with you with with a problem or something that you know they they did wrong. And I, I like to try to own up to my mistakes so that that, that, behavior is modeled because if something's gone wrong, I, I want to hear about it.

I don't want to hear about it, like, be blindsided from a customer or finding out about some other way, or not finding out about it at all and having, you know, something kind of not dealt with essentially.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. And I've also heard that term it's not brain surgery and babies talked about when it comes to, you know, we're in such a deadline driven environment in marketing. So I wonder you talked about in the beginning about how you have your stand ups and you you talk about, you know, what you're trying to do eating frogs and all these things.

How does your team decide how to prioritize and resource what you're working on to hit those deadlines and make sure every everyone is, is resourced, so to speak. Because, for example, I interviewed on how I made it marketing, Nasscom, right. The CEO and co-founder of faculty. And one of her lessons was know when to ask for help.

And she had a great story where, she was in labor. She was in the maternity ward, and she was still on a client pitch call. And they heard all these noises in the background, which was the woman in the other suite giving birth. And she just said, oh, I'm in Brooklyn. You know, there's a lot of noises.

But that was kind of an epiphany to her of like, okay, I need to do a better job knowing when to ask for help. So with your team, I like how you talked about in the beginning. You know, you've got kind of the standard procedure you go through. You're working remotely. You want to make sure, everyone's resource.

But do you have any anything specific you do to make sure that no one feels under that pressure, under that deadline pressure where, you know, it's not brain surgery on babies.

April Thompson: Well, I, I guess I make sure that they know that I'm always available to to help. I've I've basically done both of their jobs before having, you know, this, this greater role. And I think that's, so I, I can step in, in any time and say, hey, you know, I can, I can help, you know, pick up the ball.

And I really want my team to, to be able to absolutely take vacations just as I do. you know, I think a lot of us feel like we have to be 24, seven, available. And, you know, I appreciate, you know, team members who kind of go above and beyond in that way. But I think it's important also to have, redundancies and function built in where people know how to do each other's jobs so that someone can, can take off or someone can ask for help, as you say.

and I think also just that ruthless prioritization when, when someone's like, oh, I feel like I'm drowning. Let's look at what's on your plate. And, what can we take off that? Because inevitably there's, there's something that you're doing that's eating up your time that you can either not do or push down the road.

Daniel Burstein: All right, here's one more, person you call that. You said Stanley Kramer. And from Stanley, you learned highly successful people give more credit than they take. How did you learn that from Stanley?

April Thompson: So, Stanley, I worked with in the early 90s. I had graduated with a degree in psychology and was a little bit lost, but very, interested in, some of the, the niche topics that he was researching. he, worked out a lot of cross-cultural psychology. and basically took me on as a, as a research assistant on the side and, put me on the project that I did most of the research for.

He did most of the writing. And, you know, in academia, there's there's a lot of credit stolen by professors who are trying to get tenure. And I mean, I I've, I've got some friends in academia who who have you think that businesses cut through academia can be really, really challenging? Let's let's just put it that way. And unprompted, he put me on as a coauthor to this piece that I had helped some research.

He gave me my first speaking opportunity. And it's funny. ResearchGate, is this, it's a website that aggregates all of the research going back, who knows to when this was, you know, again, back in the 90s that this was published and even just yesterday, I think I got a notification that someone had read this publication and was looking to cite it.

And, but the the, the more important moral of that story really, is that people love collaborating with Stanley because he is such a champion of other people and trying to give them a shot. Now that he was at that point already very senior and storied in his career and had many, many books and accolades behind him. So, wasn't in that position as lots of academics are.

I'm trying to like, you know, build their way to the top. But arguably part of where he got today was by by being that collaborator who's willing to, you know, put someone first. And I think that's kind of rare these days. I, you know, I, I, I do know also that when someone takes the credit rather than giving it, you have to try to look at that as a compliment that someone sees your work is as valued now.

Daniel Burstein: I mean, that's a great lesson to learn from Stanley. I love that, but I also wonder, like, how do you now use that lesson when it comes to your marketing and specifically like working with subject matter experts and getting their ideas out there? Because now when we talked, you mentioned and you can explain this. I don't totally understand it.

Like DC water has the largest something or other in the world or whatever, how it works. but it just gets me thinking. That means like there's a lot of different subject matter experts, and if you can get their stories out there into the world, then that helps better communicate the value proposition of your product, you know, directly, transparently, showing what it actually does.

However, having work with subject matter experts, I know a lot of times, you know, their focus is getting their thing done. And that's what they care about. And they're a little hesitant to get involved in content or marketing or some of these things. and sometimes the people on the front lines like us on the front lines, I've always felt, a little guilty.

Sometimes I'm not trying to take credit for these things. I'm just kind of shining a light on them. I want to make sure that the credit gets to the right place. So how do you balance that and how do you kind of use this philosophy to get subject matter experts involved in the marketing? if you're able to?

April Thompson: Yeah, that's a good question. And we actually have a subject matter expert who is, horticulturalist and a recycled organics expert. which is, again, a very niche area. and, it's I don't know, it's actually been very easy to activate him as an expert in our, our domain, in part because going back to this thing of, of champions or champions, you know, he is he is a great proponent of the use of biosolids.

So I have in my, you know, my, my monthly newsletter, I often have a column called Ask the Expert where I will take, a topic. And rather than just having it written in this, you know, generic blog, voice, I'll, I'll have him draft that and and yes, I will, you know, finish that. but it's written in his voice and it's it's very effective.

Actually. I, I just looked at the, these other stats that, from last Friday's newsletter that was most clicked on, of all the pieces.

Daniel Burstein: So just do share that back with him to kind of encourage him.

April Thompson: You know what I, I have not, but I should. We're actually today we're already working on our next piece.

Daniel Burstein: Absolutely. That's awesome. Well we talked about so many different things in your stories about what it means to be a marketer. April, if you had to break it down, what are the key qualities of an effective marketer?

April Thompson: gosh, that's a good question. I think first and foremost, you have to be passionate about what you are selling or promoting. but at the same time, not to be too enamored with your own work and, you know, to, to be open, to change, to be creative yet analytical, which I think is an interesting combination, that's important in the marketer to be able to, you know, crunch the numbers but still be able to really, like, think creatively and come up with new, new ways to, to reach audiences that is increasingly different, difficult in this very noisy world that we live in.

Daniel Burstein: Or when it comes to the Amish, maybe it's all ways to reach audiences right?

April Thompson: Absolutely.

Daniel Burstein: All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, April. I learned a lot from you today.

April Thompson: Thank you.

Daniel Burstein: And thanks to everyone for listening.

Outro: Thank you for joining us for how I made it and marketing with Daniel Burstein. Now that you've got an inspiration for transforming yourself as a marketer, get some ideas for your next marketing campaign. From Marketing Sherpas extensive library of free case studies at Marketing sherpa.com. That's marketing rpa.com.