Marketing Campaigns: Lose the brand ego and lean into humility (podcast episode #130)

Action Box: Craft high-converting offers before investing in ads

Join us this Thursday (March 27th) for Design Your Offer, taught by Flint McGlaughlin (from MeclabsAI, MarketingSherpa’s parent company).

Would you ever launch a campaign celebrating your brand as second best? That’s exactly what Sandy Rubinstein did at Nick at Nite.

I sat down with Sandy Rubinstein, CEO, DX, to discuss that story, and many more lesson-filled stories, in this episode of How I Made It In Marketing.

DX is a 20-year-old company with $20 million in revenue. Rubinstein manages a team of 70 across five cities in three countries.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Listen on Spotify | Listen on Amazon Music

Stories (with lessons) about what she made in marketing

Seek serendipity

Lesson: Chase the unknown, put your hand up, and welcome the unexpected, because the best opportunities are the ones you never saw coming.

Story: Rubinstein has always been curious, staying open to meeting new people and trying new things because it’s always taken her where she needed to be. Your path can have squiggly lines, so welcome the opportunities you're presented with. In high school, Rubinstein was sure she would have a career as a broadcast journalist, yet she knew she would need to find a way to pay for college. Then a teacher told her to consider studying music since she was a strong singer in their choir.

She hadn’t considered it, but she was so sure that she set up interviews with five music schools, and ultimately all five offered her scholarships. This led to a dual degree in Opera and Business with a minor in marketing. Then a chance meeting in an elevator with a music television executive opened the door to a marketing internship and later a full-time position.

After a 15-year television marketing career, she was brought in as a consultant to assist DXagency in developing their strategic business plan, which turned into a full-time position for another 15 years. And now, she can tell you she never expected to land in adtech, but when DX was looking to solve a problem for the multicultural consumer in the programmatic media space, they decided they needed to build their own product that would super-serve the client, launching DX Kulture.

In the end, the lesson is that serendipity can be found in every opportunity you take as long as you put yourself out there.

Lose the brand ego and lean into humility

Lesson: Sometimes being able to laugh at yourself is your secret weapon. Nothing is more of a cultural connector than relatable humor.

Story: When Rubinstein was leading marketing and ad sales at Nickelodeon’s Nick at Nite & TV Land, the network was facing stiff competition. Viacom was tremendous for encouraging employees to be creative, push the envelope, and take risks. When another network topped the ratings as number one, leaving them at number two, she knew they would need to be aggressive in their marketing communications approach to stand out and have a successful upfront season.

She convinced the network to take a non-traditional approach to their ad sales marketing and seize the opportunity to be humorous. Why not? They were number two, and that’s still pretty good, right? When used correctly, humor can resonate strongly and provide even greater recall. Everyone has experienced losing a race or coming in second place at some point in their lives, but even at the Olympics you still get on the podium.

So they fully embraced being number two and announced it to all the advertising agencies and trade media. Their entire ad campaign humorously focused on the idea of being number two, with full page ads in The New York Times business section and ad trades, and they even sent clients #2 foam fingers! They owned it, and the best part was months later when she visited some of their agencies and clients, the foam fingers were still on all their desks.

Another element of brand humility Rubinstein discussed was to always seek out the customer’s perspective. When she worked at Lifetime they teamed up with Carson Kressley and launched a show called ‘How to Look Good Naked.’ They thought they were putting the customer first. But when they got negative backlash, they realized they hadn’t done enough to seek the customer’s perspective.

Bet on yourself

Lesson: Betting on yourself – even if not always successful the first time – will never not be worth the risk.

Story: After her first year as CEO at DXagency, the company faced one of its toughest hurdles (and one of her own) after a major client walked away, taking 75% of the business’s revenue with them. It was a challenge that has ruined many agencies – how do you protect people’s livelihoods and find enough capital to rebuild? It was too late to seek investment, which could take months, and Rubinstein wasn’t sure what to do.

She sat with her mentor begging for guidance and was given some powerful advice: bet on herself and focus. Rubinstein knew they had great employees, a strong agency and the ability to do great work, she just needed a plan. The reality was harsh – they had enough capital reserve to float, and needed time to onboard new clients, and they needed the employees to stay so they could pitch new business. Yet Rubinstein refused to allow this to be how her story ended and needed to commit to not giving up.

She decided to believe in herself and take a risk. Rubinstein sat with her husband, and they decided to use personal savings to cover their payroll for a year and reboot the business. Today, they are in their 20th year with 70 employees in five cities and expanded to launch DXKulture, their ad tech business last year. Betting on yourself – even if it's scary – will always be worth the risk.

Lessons (with stories) from people she collaborated with

Seek out every voice in the room

via Les Garland, American music executive 

Story: While Rubinstein was in college studying music and business, she needed to drop something off at her parent’s office building. On her way up in the elevator, a man noticed her University of Miami sweatshirt and asked her if she was attending school there and what Rubinstein was studying. When she told him music and business, his face lit up and they started talking about her favorite artists and genres.

Unbeknownst to her at the time, that man turned out to be Les Garland, one of the founders of MTV, who had also started The Box Music Television Network. When they got off the elevator, he gave her his card and said Rubinstein should call his office if interested in an internship. She jumped at the chance! Interning for Garland later led to a full-time position in the Marketing department providing an amazing opportunity for a continued direct dialogue with the President of the network.

Often in meetings, she would be squeezed into the back row in a corner taking notes for the Marketing Director and Garland would ask for varying opinions and would turn to her and ask “San, what do you think”, even if she was the youngest and most inexperienced in the room. He taught her the importance of making space for diverse experiences and seeking out every voice in the room.

Give everyone an equal seat at the table, and the best ideas will bubble up.

Be the all-weather friend

via Bill Rosolie, former Executive VP, Fuse Television

Story: Rubinstein is sure everyone listening had one of these stories…she had come off of a very bad work experience and wasn’t in a good place. Rubinstein had pushed people away, retreating into herself, closing out the rest of the world. Rosolie, however, was not going to let her sulk and wallow. He was relentless in calling her and ultimately left a message with a time and restaurant telling her to be there for breakfast.

She had no choice; Rubinstein couldn’t leave him there waiting, so she dusted herself off and went to the city for breakfast. Where many friends and colleagues had turned away from her struggle, Rosolie never gave up. He gave her the tough love and perspective she needed at just the right time. But more importantly, he offered help and taught her the value of showing up for people you care about.

It’s not just important who is there when you’re up, but also who from your community is there when you’re down that really matters. Be the all-weather friend.

Mentorship is not a one-way street

via Samantha Sichel, Head of Global Digital, Live Nation

Story: Sichel and Rubinstein met when Rubinstein hired her for an entry-level position at FUSE. She was bright and creative, and Rubinstein loved her desire to always learn and push the envelope. Though they have nearly a 15-year age gap, Rubinstein considers her a dear friend and has valued her insight and ideas through the years. They are sounding boards for each other, talking through situations, challenges, and struggles in their professional and personal lives.

Whether it’s new music (Rubinstein still doesn’t know the names of bands Sichel tells her are cool) new tech, or a fresh point of view, her world has grown thanks to Sichel’s tutelage. They really have become each other's mentors with a pure, honest, and open approach to all their conversations.

Just because you might be the eldest or most experienced in the room, doesn’t mean you don’t have something new to learn. Lean in with the people who activate your growth.

Discussed in this episode

Innovative Marketing Leadership: It is okay to think outside the box but make sure you don't create surprises (podcast episode #82)

Marketing: It’s not about you, and when you make it about you, you are never going to succeed (podcast episode #53)

Marketing Career: How to become an indispensable asset to your company (even in a bad economy)

Voice-Over Coaching: Tips for improving external webinars, internal trainings and other content

Creative Marketing and Advertising Campaigns: Hold the line & get a door kicker (podcast episode #84)

Marketing Mentorship: Direct feedback is a gift (podcast episode #98)

Podcast Guest Application

MarketingSherpa is accepting podcast guest applications for future episodes of How I Made It In Marketing.

Get more episodes

Subscribe to the MarketingSherpa email newsletter to get more insights from your fellow marketers. Sign up for free if you’d like to get more episodes like this one.

For more insights, check out...

This podcast is not about marketing – it is about the marketer. It draws its inspiration from the Flint McGlaughlin quote, “The key to transformative marketing is a transformed marketer” from the Become a Marketer-Philosopher: Create and optimize high-converting webpages free digital marketing course.

Sandy Rubinstein : So, this may not be a popular way to say it. However, I tell everybody that when you work for me or work with me, you inherit a Jewish Latin mother. And, that means everything that it means. It means you're always too skinny. You need more, that means that you're going to have to WhatsApp me when you're traveling internationally.

So I know that you're okay and you've reached your destination. But it also means I'm going to tell you what I think when I think it, and you make it to your point. You may not love it at that moment, but I want you to ingest it, and I want you to think about it, and then we'll talk about it later.

And I think that's really important. So, yeah, in addition to leading with kindness and being, you know, thoughtful, I think that being honest is paramount, because if you can't build an honest foundation with somebody, then there really is no relationship.

Intro : Welcome to how I made it in marketing. From marketing Sherpa, we scour pitches from hundreds of creative leaders and uncover specific examples, not just trending ideas or buzzword laden schmaltz. Real world examples to help you transform yourself as a marketer. Now here's your host, the Senior Director of Content and Marketing at Marketing Sherpa, Daniel Bernstein, to tell you about today's guest and.

Daniel Burstein : Ego is a tricky beast. I've often had to fight my own ego in my career, but along the way, I learned this valuable lesson. When I asked myself what I could get done if my ego wasn't involved and I saw the possibilities, it opened. It helped me slay my own personal dragon. And we have that very same issue with our brands, my friends.

My inbox is constantly overflowing with PR pitches, boasting about some leading brand or best in class, this or that. So a podcast guest application that came across my desk really grabbed my attention when I saw this lesson. Lose the brand ego and lean into humility. Joining me now to share this story of the creative campaign that approach, unlocked along with many more lesson filled stories, is Sandy Rubenstein, CEO of DC's culture and DC's agency.

Thanks for joining me, Sandy.

Sandy Rubinstein : It's a pleasure to be here.

Daniel Burstein : All right. Let's take a quick look at your background so people know who I'm talking to. Many roles in her career. But if you want to highlight director of partnerships for GMC trucks, cross divisional opportunities at General Motors Artworks, VP of marketing for Nickelodeon's Nick at night and TV land, SVP of marketing for Annie networks Lifetime Television.

And she joined the agency 16 years ago. The agency is a 20 year old company with $20 million in revenue, and Sandy manages a team of 70 across five cities in three countries. So, Sandy, what is your day like as CEO?

Sandy Rubinstein : A lot less fun than when I was in all those other roles. It is it's wonderful and challenging at the same time as, incredibly stressful. The the typical day can have anything from, you know, having to deal with, clients and nuances that, that they require or, employee and our team and any kind of issues that are bubbling up with a sizable staff.

We often have, you know, things that need addressing. But it could have, you know, a brainstorm meeting in the morning and, panel conversation with finance, an hour after that and then pivot back to the some fun shenanigans with the potluck with the staff.

Daniel Burstein : I as long as there's some fun shenanigans in there, I like some shenanigans.

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah, life is about shenanigans.

Daniel Burstein : That's nice. All right, well, let's take a look at some of the things we can learn from your career. You know, I like to say I have never really been in another industry. I've never been a podiatrist or an actuary, but I feel like we get to make things, and I don't feel like everyone gets to make things.

So your first lesson, you said seek serendipity. So have you done this in your career? And how'd you learn this?

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah. You know, I think that one of the things that, maybe, I don't know if it's generational or just the way, you know, we're brought up, my my family is Hispanic, and, you know, we were very we were taught early on have a direction, have a path. Everything has to be clear. You have to have a plan.

And, oftentimes I find myself in squiggly lines, which is where I like to live. I think that we were so focused on, forward movement that sometimes we miss all of the things that are happening around us that could provide a pivot. So I think being open to those conversations as you meet people, you never know, you know, why that person has come before you?

I think there's there's some fun things that could happen that people miss. So I'll give you a, for instance. I was in high school. I was already applying to college to be a broadcast journalist. I'm sure you could already notice that. You know, that would be a perfect career for me. And, I was convinced. That's it.

I'm reading the news. This is my path. And I had a music teacher in high school who said to me, you know, are you considering college? And I said, yeah, this is what I'm gonna do. And she said, I think you need to think about going to music school. I was like, are you crazy? Who studies music? Like, you can't even make a living this way, you know?

I wasn't going to be the next Beyonce, right? But, it just wasn't, even a an acorn of an idea. And she said to me, how about this? Keep applying. But I'm going to also set you up with five interviews and auditions. I'm going to teach you a piece of music. Mind you, I still didn't even know how to read music.

She's like, I will teach you a piece of music. I will take you and I will play the piano to accompany you. And subsequently, she took me. I got five scholarships, and I would not have been able to afford to go to any of the universities that, that she got me access to. So I ended up saying, you know what?

Maybe I'm not going to read the news. Let me do this and get a business degree, because I might have a different path. So it's being open to the squiggly lines and saying, you know, there's always an opportunity that you haven't considered, and it might not be the right one at the right time, but you should definitely keep your eyes open.

Daniel Burstein : Yeah. You know, there's a few words I love in life. Tenacity is one of them, but serendipity is one of them too. I just love that word is so appealing to me. But you know, one thing I've learned in in my life is in my career is, yes, serendipity. But also when you put in that prep work that can make a lot of difference when the thing comes along.

So maybe not in your music class. And but for us, as marketers and with our brands. And so one thing I want to ask you is, for example, you were a brand marketer. TV stations, I noticed. How did you make sure you understood what would work with the customer? So you had that background with something come along. So for example, I interviewed, Sara Hodges, CMO of Procore technologies, on how I made it marketing.

One of her lessons was you have to walk in your customer's shoes, literally. And, Procore is a construction software company. So for her, she would literally put on boots, put on gloves, put on the key and go on construction sites and be like, oh, this is what it's like to drink coffee in the cold with these gloves on and all these different things, right?

Smart. And so that's again, when we had these opportunities come up for our brands or companies. Yes, there's serendipity, but there's also preparation. So can you walk us, give us an example maybe of I know you worked as a brand side marketer, many major TV studios. What did you do to get in the customer set?

Sandy Rubinstein : So, interesting. And a good parallel, I think. I, moved to New York and I got a job at the Sci Fi Channel and I am not a science fiction fan. So in preparation, I actually went to Comic-Con a few weeks before I started the job, and I walked the floor, and I just, I, you know, I started talking to people and asking them, like, what is it about sci fi you love?

Give me the kernels. Like, let me understand. I said, I'm a newbie. I have no no backstory. I don't even know who you know. Any of the characters were. And I actually spent three days at Comic-Con at the Javits Center, and by the time I started the job, I understood the audience. Whether I was a fan or not.

I knew that I actually could communicate effectively to them because I had taken the time to do that. It's it's, I think, paramount to really understand the mindset, the interest, the things that make those nuggets that make the person tick. Because if you don't create a meaningful connection with them, it doesn't matter how good a marketer you are, right?

If you don't understand what matters to them, you'll never be able to to have them convert, to take any kind of action.

Daniel Burstein : That's great. And I love how you entered with humility, because there's something that we tend to do, you know, as marketers in general, as people, but especially on the agency consultant side where we feel like we've got to be the experts and know everything, right? That's why people are paying us. So to come in humbly an audience like sci fi lovers.

But that's true in B2B too. Like in many tech spaces where it's like, you can't act like you know everything because you need to speak a certain language.

Sandy Rubinstein : Yes, I now know more about the Star Wars trilogy than I really ever intended to know that Star Wars. But it it it changes your perspective. It changes the way you communicate. And, you know, you might think you have the most innovative creative campaign idea, but ultimately, if it doesn't resonate with the audience that you're looking at, it doesn't really matter.

Daniel Burstein : No, I love that. So and speaking of that, you know, I read this lesson in the open because I just it just struck me lose the brand ego and lead into humility. Now, I know we always have to say, like, our brains are number one, we're on this team are all the best. Like, how did you learn this lesson and tell us the story behind this?

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah, I think foundationally, I like to really look at things from a, from a lighthearted perspective. I think if we're not curing cancer or saving babies, everything has a solution. Right? So, we were at I was at Nick at night, and we were going into a very aggressive upfront season. We're trying to figure out how to stand out there.

You know, at the time, there's hundreds of cable channels and everyone's going into the upfront. You're competing with linear and, we ended up coming in in the ratings as number two. And my boss was like, oh God, how do we deal with this? Like, we're not, you know, we don't have like a number one story. They're running all of the different Nielsen reports and trying to come up with a version that makes us one in some subcategory.

You know, when you slice and dice and we're sitting in these meetings and I finally just turn to the whole team and I said, stop. And so we're number two. Like, how awesome is number two? And they're all looking at me like I'm nuts. And I said, let's own it. Let's just like, be who we are. We can give a nod to the person who's number one, and that's great.

And, you know, amazing for them. Well done. But we're number two. We're still on the podium. Like we still get to to play in the sandbox. And you know, there's hundreds of people behind us. There's nothing wrong with touting the fact that that we came in second. And I think people sometimes lose perspective. They're so focused on, you know, I have to be the best.

I have to be the first. I have to. And, there's a really amazing space to play in. In celebrating your milestone.

Daniel Burstein : Yeah. That's great. I've also said to another place I see this earnings calls. Like when not I used to have be on earnings calls early in my career. So it's like I would just never get it. Like this company made. 1358 ish year, not 1376 this year. And the analysts are like beating the executives like they made a lot of money.

Sandy Rubinstein : Come on. Isn't that crazy, right? It's still made a crazy percentage of increase year over year but. Or quarter over quarter. Yeah. But you missed by two $0.02.

Daniel Burstein : And it's not what we projected. So we're mad but oh I love I wish I could see that New York Times that that sounds awesome. But let me ask you this. The way you think about brand ego, the other thing I think about is, and this is just kind of a natural human thing, is we often put our own goals ahead of the customer's goals, right.

Do you have any example of like, how you put the customer first? Marketing? Sure. We do a lot about customer first marketing. For example, when I interviewed Nasser Landis, vice president of marketing for octane, one of her lessons was it's not about you. And when you make it about you, you are never going to succeed. And she talked about working at General Mills were Glenn Brand.

It's like their organic brand and launching at Whole Foods. These are tomatoes you know like normally canned tomatoes but showing how natural they are. It was in a glass jar. And but the problem is the launch failed because it was too expensive. And she admitted she's like the reason it failed it, it was too expensive. And all this she's like, I was in General Mills brand manager rotation program, so I was only in that brand for a short amount of time.

So my focus wasn't on how do I put the customer first and put out a product that's at their price point. My focus was on I've only got a month more on this brand rotation, and I won't have this, you know, achievement for myself. So again, this is what we struggle with as brands or for our clients.

We need to get results. Right. I mean we ultimately need to pay the mortgage and I always whatever it is. So but how do you have any examples of hey like yes, this is what we want, but here's how we can ultimately put the customer's needs first. And it's not all about our brand and our ego.

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah. I think that, I'm trying to give you a really good example because I have actually a few of them. As you can imagine, being in television for so many years, we were launching a new show on lifetime called How to Look Good Naked.

Daniel Burstein : And I had the title right there.

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah. You knew that. You knew. I have a couple of these for you. And, we we thought we were putting the customer first. And we thought that there was really an appetite for women to reflect on, you know, how their body shaming was a big thing in those years, about ten years ago. And all of the magazines.

And moved to these, you know, wafer models and all of the, the, commercials really did not reflect the American audience. So, we teamed up with Carson Kressley, who was from Queer Eye, from a sweet guy, and he's he's adorable. And we started to to market a show called How to Look Good Naked. And, we felt that we were being quite clever.

And you can only imagine with the title, we we launched New Year's Day, biggest diet day of the year. And we, we came out with a whole ad campaign that had women in every body type, in Times Square, sort of dropping the rope and, posing naked and what we realized is that we had not tested the show enough.

We had not really sought out our viewers perspective. And the amount of negative backlash we got, from our viewers at Life Time was, incredible because they felt that we were also promoting unhealthy bodies, and there was quite a bit of conversation. And it definitely, you know, it was an eye opening. We we thought we were incredibly clever.

Happy New Year. I mean, the campaign was, was, you know, a definitely a wink and a smile, but, what what I learned in that moment was that not everybody is going to have the same perspective. And what I hadn't done on that launch is really tested with different age groups, different ethnicities, and really looked at it from a holistic perspective.

What we had done is only tested with our, you know, a small subset audience. And this was a deviation from our regular and what was expected. So I it definitely was a humbling moment, but also one that made me realize that not not every consumer is going to is going to just assume. I can't just assume that every consumer is going to have an appetite for the type of content we're putting out just because they are a consumer of our network.

Daniel Burstein : Yeah. That's great. And I know for myself, being a creative, I mean, my background is as a writer and the creative side, the agency, I'm always a sucker for a good creative idea. And if you'd pitched me that idea, I'd be like, yes, go for it. But, you know, that's, as you said, kind of with sci fi, we're not always, always the target customer.

Right. Well, you know, when we work. So you've worked at many brands. We work at the agency side. We work for other brands, but sometimes it's our own company as well. Right? That we're running and you are running a company, whether it's an agency and you've got clients, you are running a company. And this is a great lesson.

You said bet on yourself. So how did you do this as a CEO at your agency?

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah, it was about a year into, my tenure and our largest client represented 75% of our revenue. And, you know, lesson learned. Never have one client represents such a large percentage of your billing. But, they gave us 30 days notice and, took all of their operations with them. We had a full team, and I had a really difficult moment.

I'd never experienced anything like this. I was never the owner of the company. I was always an employee at a big, you know, network or brand or whatever. And, not only is it terrifying, but you're looking at all these faces in the room of people who depend on you, and their livelihoods and their families. And you have to make some really important decisions.

We, you know, we're private company. We have no outside investment. Nor could I get investment quick enough to, you know, turn it around, and make a significant impact. So I it definitely took a few, a few tough days of some soul searching. And I just knew that the talent I had was very creative. I knew that if we really had a chance, if we had time, we could make it.

And I had to find a way to get that time. So what I ended up doing was, my kids were little, and I don't recommend anybody do this in this fashion. But I went home and sat down with my husband. We had a real heart to heart, and we ended up taking our kids college funds and, and personal savings, and we we personally funded the company for a year.

But that gamble paid off because during that year, we pitched, like, our hearts, you know, depended on it. And we really made some, some significant gains, and clients, actually, who are still with us. So it's, it's in those moments where you have to have clarity and fear can't paralyze you. And that's, you know, what? Most people.

And when I talk to other business owners, that's what happens. The fear paralyzes you from taking any kind of risk. We made a calculated risk. But it was. I just knew I had the right team, the right creatives, and that we really could pitch in when we just needed a bridge of time.

Daniel Burstein : So I like how you say calculated risk. I wonder, was there anything you did to make sure to know that it was a good risk to take? Right. So, for example, I've been in that situation different agency, the first agency that hired me out of college lost a major client like that. I, I got laid off before I even started that agency.

Ultimately, the agency went out of business. I didn't, you know, work on companies that have gone through that and they've succeeded. And so I think I like this idea, but I want to make sure to for our audience, we're not just kind of cheering them on. It's like, how do you act on this? And so, for example, I interviewed Christian Zhivago before the president of Chicago Management Partners.

And one thing she did and specifically does is she interviews customers. And she says after about 5 or 10 customers, potential customers, whoever your target is, you're going to start seeing patterns. You're going to kind of know, so again, I like this. There's a good motivational speaker part of Bet on yourself. But now let's take the marketing strategies business strategist hat on.

Was there anything you did to make sure like okay, this is a good calculated bet because in fairness, there could be people listening who are going through something similar. And the better thing might be to just, you know, roll it down, whatever it is, file for bankruptcy, whatever that is there, and not go all in on it.

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah. I think, you know, one of the things, because I hadn't grown up in the agency world, one of the things that I was able to look at is, is how does everybody else do it? Not looking at other agencies, but other businesses in how do they mitigate, how do they prepare for risk? We were not set up properly to prepare for risk.

So immediately we instituted a few things. One and two, your your agency experience. All of our employees have to be monetized over five pieces of business. So if we lose a piece of business, I never have to terminate an employee. That is really important to us because I don't want my employees living in a constant state of fear.

You'll never get good creative out of someone if they don't feel confident that they're going to have a job tomorrow. So that's that's one important piece. The other important piece for us was that, we started building capital reserves. We had never really looked at, you know, saving for a rainy day. I feel like my mother is talking to me all the time, but we really, you know, as businesses, we're often so focused on forward movement and investing and hiring more people or getting more tools or whatever you need.

But we really have to look at it also from a from a different perspective and say, okay, we have got we've got all these people depending on us. We really have to make sure we plan for the future. And the final thing was we started actually, interviewing clients and saying, what do you like about us? What would you like to see more?

We interviewed people that we didn't win the business, and they actually it was wonderful. They took the time because most people won't give you any feedback. And we really drill down, with surveys and with one on one interviews. Really give us some more insight. Give us some more, tangibles that we can utilize to grow our business.

And you'd be surprised how many people will help you even though they didn't hire you. We'll give you guidance, give you advice. And what was the most interesting of that whole process was there were two people who ended up not hiring us in our first round, gave us advice, and ended up becoming friends of the agency, as we call them.

We've stayed in touch, and then they they became clients. So, really take take a very broad look. If you find yourself at this, place, pivot and don't just look at other people in the same competitive space and their businesses, because not every business is built the same. Look out and seek out other types of businesses, other types of CFOs or CMOs and different positions and ask them a lot of information.

People will share with you as long as you ask. And that was, I think, the most important thing that we we really looked at it from, from a total outsider looking in and saying, how do we fix, how do we adjust and how do we grow?

Daniel Burstein : Well that's great. They probably appreciated the steps you took. And so this company this they're on to something the way they, they're they're dealing with losing business. But the other thing that's interesting I think you said is that each employee has five pieces of business, because just another totally different thing I've seen with some agencies is when you have a big account and some, you know, employees only focus on one account, they almost work more for that brand than they do for the agency.

You know what I mean? So so getting them involved with other business, I feel like keeps them in your agency culture.

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah. It's hard. We've had some embeds and those are, you know, things that you have to do for some clients. But it is definitely, not as not our preferred method.

Daniel Burstein : Yeah. For sure. Well, speaking of that culture and collaboration. So in the first half of the episode, we talk about things we make, but in the second half we talk about the people we make them with because that's what we get to do as marketers. We build things, but we build it with people. But before we get to that, I should mention that the How I Made It in Marketing podcast is underwritten by Mack Labs.

I, the parent company of marketing Sherpa. You can get conversion focused training from the lab that helped pioneer the conversion industry in the AI Guild and a community to collaborate with as well. So grab your three free three month scholarship to the Mack Labs I Guild at joint Mack Labs ai.com, and to join that Mack Labs. I.com and start collaborating.

All right. Let's talk about some people you collaborated with Sandy. You mentioned Les Garland, an American music executive. And from less you said you learned to seek out every voice in the room. How did you learn this from les?

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah, he is an amazing, character. And I say character because he's just a huge personality. I met les when I was in college in an elevator, and I was wearing a University of Miami sweatshirt. And, you know, typical music industry guy is like, oh, did you go to University of Miami? And, I'm like, yeah. He's like, what are you doing there?

I said, oh, I'm studying music. He's like, oh, go on. And we just started chit chatting about music. And he said he literally was getting out of the elevator, handed me his card and said, if you ever want an internship at a music television network, call me. So I ended up getting the internship and I interned for him.

And subsequently, when I graduated, they gave me a full time position in marketing. And one of the most fantastic things about les was that although I was, you know, I like to say I was 12 years old, but I was literally a kid, right. I think I was all of 20. And I'm sitting in the back corner of this very crowded conference room with all the executives, and I'm in the back taking notes for my boss, you know, who's at the table and les would ask everyone their opinion on different business items.

And he'd go around the room, and then he'd look around at all of the young people in the back, and he would say, hey, Sam, what do you think? And here I am, literally all of 20. And, I'm giving my opinion with a room of senior executives who are all very seasoned and very overqualified. And, you know, my perspective.

But what it taught me is that every single person in the room has a unique thought process and has a unique perspective, and when you actually listen to all of them, you can still make whatever decision you want to make. But you have a very well-rounded view. And I've used that in business and in, in my marketing campaigns, except for how to look at naked.

And but it really does. And that's why I even try to hire not just visibly diverse people, but age and, you know, backgrounds and where they're from. Because for me, I think it's really important to think about everybody in the room having they can all see the same commercial and everyone have a different experience. Right? So the more you seek out those conversations and the more you listen, the more well-rounded your approach can be.

Daniel Burstein : So that was literally your first successful elevator pitch. I love that.

Sandy Rubinstein : Right?

Daniel Burstein : That was great. Well, let me ask you. So you kind of started talking about this, but now that you're the leader, how can you give a specific example of how you get people involved in the room? And I'm specifically curious about when it comes to pitching because pitching, we've talked about this before. It's so key for agencies for getting any idea across.

Right. So for example, when I've talked about pitching is essentially a presentation, I've written about presentations. One of the key things I talked about is put your audience first. I loved how when before we even hit record, you asked me, who's the audience? You were putting your audience first. We were talking about this. But I also realized, you know, when your story.

That's a good example, like, it was a music, television station, you were probably in the target demographic for it. Sometimes the things were pitching were not customers for, like you mentioned, sci fi and some of the things before. I can also think of there are some just good B2B products, industrial pipe fittings or OSHA compliance services or all this stuff where sometimes I have heard from designers or others like, well, I would never read this and I would never do this.

And it's like, well, okay, you're not the target customer. That's you shouldn't, you know, this is for a specific customer. So I love the idea, you know, get all the voice in the room. But how do you balance that with like, you know, when you're cutting a pitch for a company to make sure you're getting voices that are relevant to the actual ideal customer for that company?

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah, it's difficult. And I think post-Covid and particularly in this zoom environment, it's even more complicated. You have to really seek them out. So, I'll give you an answer. That actually was from a pitch we worked on and submitted on Friday. And, I'm on. I'm in a meeting. Some people are remote, some people were in person.

And we're going through the the final presentation deck that the team has put together. And it was a couple days before Friday. I'm sorry. It was on Wednesday. And we were we were prepping the final tweaks, but they take me through it two days prior to submission so that I can, you know, keep it, give any kind of guidance.

So we're going through it. And I hear the same three people talking about everything they're walking through. They're giving the explanations, the rationales. And I asked them to stop midway. And then I asked the people who hadn't spoken, talk to me about how you see this. Give me your perspective. You might not be in the right demographic. I want to know, though, as a consumer, what do you feel?

How does this make you, you know, does it make you want to engage with this product? Do you feel any kind of connection? And I think that is the most important thing, because what ended up happening is that one of the youngest people in the room, who is not at all the target audience for this product, said, I don't get it.

And the entire I mean, you could literally hear a pin drop, the entire room stopped and everyone sort of turned their head and she said, there's no thread connecting the story here. And all of a sudden everyone, like a light bulb went off and everyone was like, oh God. Like we were so busy going through the motions, right, that nobody thought about the story arc and telling, you know, how do we present this from beginning, middle and end?

And although the concepts were strong and everything, all of a sudden she just turned around. She goes, what if you do this, this and this and the entire room? Everybody's eyes went wide and smiles came back, and all of a sudden the designers like, oh my God, I can visualize visualize it this way. And, you know, some of the the other teams members started to think about how that impacted their, you know, submission and their portion.

And that's why I think it's so important because you never know, even if you're not in the target demo perspective can come from anyone in the room.

Daniel Burstein : No. That's so great. And I think there's a problem to meetings where it's like sometimes a lot of voices control things. And I gotta admit, I'm sometimes guilty of being one of those voices. And I got to remember to, like, let some other people talk. Yeah. And it is it harder on zoom because you can't read body language noise, you know.

Sandy Rubinstein : You know, and when there's 100 people on a zoom and, you know, not everybody feels very confident. I actually have had all of our staff turn on their video cameras for every meeting, said, I need to see your face. I need to see your expression. I need to see how you react. And I want your microphones on all the time.

Unless the dogs barking in the background, because I want you to feel comfortable in. When an idea comes in, I want you to be able to verbalize it. By the time you go find the unmute button on your computer, you might say, you know what? I'm not going to say anything. Or the conversations moved on.

Daniel Burstein : That's great. Well, also, I think it's great leadership, you know, separately, getting a good idea for that pitch. I mean, that's great leadership. Now that encourages that young employee to see like, hey, they are a role player. Just because you're new here doesn't mean that they're not going to play a role. And so that's awesome.

Sandy Rubinstein : Precisely. If we could get rid of titles, I think that would even be more wonderful because I feel that sometimes young people feel stifled by the title of who they're talking to and what's on their business card. And, I think oftentimes I tell our team, I don't really care whose title is what, I don't care if it's the intern or if it's the CFO.

I want everyone to feel that they have an equal voice, and that's when you get good ideas.

Daniel Burstein : Says the CEO. But you know, another problem which has, I'll tell you, agencies title inflation, who's not a VP. Like that's the other thing too. When you're dealing externally and trying to work with everyone is VP of everything. Yeah. I like that idea. All right. This is kind of a more personal, story from your career. You learned be the all weather friend, and you said you learned this from Bill Rosalie, the former executive VP of Fuze Television.

How did you learn this from Bill?

Sandy Rubinstein : So I think what we lose sight of is we have a lot of friends. When things are going well in our career and when they're not. There are very few people who stand by you. And I found myself in a very difficult part of my career where I was coming off a very bad experience. And, you know, I did what most people do.

You retreat, you, you know, hide is the wrong word, right? But you hide from the world. And, I was having a really tough time. I was trying to think of what I was going to do next and what kind of pivot. And, I really I was in a rough, rough place. And it happens. And I think that's the part that I needed to come to terms with.

Right? Most people, you have success after success after success, and then all of a sudden you have a massive, sort of roadblock. And it's very humbling. But it's also incredibly jarring. And as I called people, you know, some people were nice, some people were were, you know, they were in here, but nobody really, really was like in it with me.

And Bill kept calling me, and, you know, I would I would send him a voicemail or I would take his call. And about three seconds later, I'm like, you know, Bill, I got to go. The kids, the dog, the mailman, anything. And he got frustrated with me. He sent me a text that said, I'm going to be at this restaurant at this time for breakfast, and I'm going to have a seat for you.

And if you don't show up, I'm going to be really upset with you. And I couldn't leave him at the restaurant by himself. So, I, I went and met him and he literally was like, you've got to stop. He's like, you're the only one living in this nonsense. He's like, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and let's go.

What's the plan? Let's talk about how do we move forward. And he spent the next hour and a half of breakfast literally forcing me to talk to him about what were the action items I was going to take to move forward. And that is the most important piece to this. To this story that we we all are there for the highs.

Right? But when people really need us, it's the lows. We don't check on each other enough. We don't push each other enough. I find too often we don't lift each other up enough or celebrate each other. So that became sort of a pivotal moment in my career, where I decided that I was going to be that person and pay it forward to others.

Daniel Burstein : I mean, that's just beautiful. That's just beautiful. I'm in connections to it, and I'm sure it's even harder, remotely. Let me ask you. So I want to give I want to give you credit, some credit here and and figure this out because you're talking about Bill. And, we can all learn from Bill's actions, I'm sure.

I'm just guessing bill doesn't do that for every single person he's ever come across. So what did you do to build that relation with Bill? Like, what do you do that you've been through a lot of different roles now. Like what do you do when you're going in an organization to build a relationship like that? Right. So for example, when I interviewed John Reid, the CMO of, I identified on how I made it marketing, one of his lessons was be easy to root for.

And I hope you remembered this because he talked about filming Adidas commercials with some up and coming rapper, and he said he was like, so full of himself and had this whole posse with him, and he was just like, acting like he's doing their favorite film, the commercial. He's like, that guy never went anywhere. He's like, but we filmed the same commercial with Michael B Jordan early in his career.

He came in using one of the themes of this podcast totally humble, yet wanting to serve us. Didn't have any, you know, hangers on. And he's like, that guy has totally succeeded. And he's like, and that's what he said. I always try my career for for my brands and for me to be easy to root for. So for you, when you're like, you've been in many roles, you've gone into leadership really.

And Bill saw you and Bill's like, this is someone I'm going to go do all this extra effort for good for Bill. But like, how do you build that relationship that that does stand the test of even going through some bad times?

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah. Great question. I think that, lead with kindness and a lot of people forget to be a real person. So I'll give you a couple of examples. I had a, a coworker colleague who had been going through a pretty nasty divorce. And when the divorce, ended, I sent her flowers. I keep everybody's birthdays on a calendar, and I send a card with a handwritten note or a little, something that I know, you know, really was.

I have a friend who loves maple, so I seek out whenever I'm traveling, and I find little maple candies or maple. Some things, I buy them and just send them. And it's just that just being kind, being thoughtful, being a human being that a lot of us forget. So when I go into an organization, even with a new client now at the agency side, I listen, I actually was was pitching a client, two weeks ago, and we were giggling because we're both Spanish and there's a product called Fabuloso.

I don't know if you ever heard of it, but we're cleaning product, right? And, we were giggling because, you know, when when you didn't have money as a, as a Hispanic, you couldn't afford Pine-Sol. It was like the, the top of the, the cleaning products guide. So you bought Fabuloso and Fabuloso is purple and it has the smell.

And we were both laughing so much about Fabuloso. And she's like, oh my God, my dream in life is to, you know, work for Fabuloso. So fast forward, I knew her birthday was coming up and I sent her a case of fabuloso and that's it. And she I didn't even put a card on it. She knew exactly who it was from.

It's a just be thoughtful, be kind. And people will ingratiate themselves to you.

Daniel Burstein : That's beautiful. Well, let's talk about one other type of relationship we have in businesses. Is that mentor mentee relationship. You said you've learned that mentorship is not a one way street. You learned this from Samantha Sass Gel, head of Global digital at Live Nation. How did you learn this from Samantha?

Sandy Rubinstein : Yeah, I've been blessed over my career to mentor a lot of of young people. You know, it's after 30 years in the business, right? You meet a lot of really smart cookies, and you want to help guide them. But Samantha and I, actually, I hired her into her first job, and, it was a fuze television. It was music, and she was amazing.

And, you know, when you just see a spark in somebody, right? They just they have it all. So, throughout her career, I've always helped her. Any kind of, you know, work challenges or personal challenges that she comes into. But what she does for me is she helps me. She'll constantly teach me. She'll push me into ways that I've never really thought of.

So I'll give you examples. She called me when she was at Live Nation, and, she, she's talking about some technology in some product, and she's like, hey, did you know? And I'm like, I have no idea what you're even talking about. I said, you have to talk to me like you're talking to your mother. And, so she what she does is she takes me through innovations.

And so now it's become a thing where she'll call me whenever she sees a new technology product coming out. And she's like, Sandy, you need to know this. You need to understand this. This will be good for your business. This is good for your clients. And so she actually guides me often. And then she'll, you know, send me concert tickets to a show I've never even heard of.

But it's wonderful because I'm. I'm there for her from a from a top down perspective. And she's there for me from the bottom up. And we sort of meet in the middle, and we have this really fantastic, place to play in the middle. And, you know, there's a 15 year age difference. But, when we're together, it's it's like it's zero.

Daniel Burstein : Well, you know, and you bring up something great for anyone younger listening to me. One thing. When I speak to colleges, I tell them when I started out, I started at the bottom rung because I started in, you know, with print advertising and certain all sorts of guys, you know what I mean? And so is, like everyone else knew more than me.

And I was learning from, you know, direct mail or TV, radio, whatever it is. Right. But when kind of some things like social media, mobile, even AI and stuff now came along, I'm like, you have skills and expertise that this older generation is trying to learn. So it's like, yes, you still should come in humbly and come in an entry level, but also realize like you've got this value to bring that like I could when I started.

Sandy Rubinstein : Right. It's a and this is digital native kids. These are, you know, young people who grew up, my son actually works for me. And he comes in all the time and says to me, mom, you have no idea you're missing the boat on this, this and this. And I said, you know what? Sit down, show me.

Explain it. And they're so excited to share and they're so knowledgeable. Right. The depth and breadth that young people have that just comes to them naturally, that we all have to really take a moment and try to understand, it's amazing, but it's it's such a great sort of intersection. And for, I'm going to say, not young and old, but, the experienced and less experienced, where we can really meet in the middle.

And a lot of those, those age lines have blurred, which is really cool.

Daniel Burstein : Yeah. Well, I'm going to ask you the same question about Sandy. Ask you about Bill. How did you start this relationship? It's become two way, but for example, I interviewed Erica White, the vice president of marketing communications at a firm on how I made it marketing. And one of her lessons was direct feedback as a gift. And she talked about her time at Pandora.

When the CEO is so good about giving unfiltered feedback that is timely and actionable, and that is it's it's a hard thing to give as a mentor, and it's sometimes a hard thing to receive because we have this human relationship dynamic where we don't ever really want to say something negative to somebody. I mean, most people feel that way.

It's an uncomfortable thing. So take us back. How do you start a mentor mentee relationship?

Sandy Rubinstein : So, this may not be a popular way to say it. However, I tell everybody that when you work for me or work with me, you inherit a Jewish Latin mother. And, that means everything that it means. It means you're always too skinny. You need more. That means that you're going to have to WhatsApp me when you're traveling internationally.

So I know that you're okay and you've reached your destination. But it also means that I'm going to tell you what I think when I think it, and you make it to your point. You may not love it at that moment, but I want you to ingest it, and I want you to think about it, and then we'll talk about it later.

And I think that's really important. So, you know, in addition to leading with kindness and being, you know, thoughtful, I think that being honest is paramount, because if if you can't build an honest foundation with somebody, then there really is no relationship. So if I can't tell you, hey, I think you know, you're too skinny or, you know, you you probably should have said it differently in this meeting.

In the future, I want you to try it this way. Then we don't really have a relationship.

Daniel Burstein : What a good point. And I think we grew up in the same family, but that's a that's a whole other podcast. You'll have to counsel me on that. All right. We talked about so many different stories from your career. Thank you for sharing them. Sandy. If you had to break it down, what are the key qualities of an effective marketer?

Sandy Rubinstein : It's one quality. You have to be curious and that curiosity spills into everything. But if you're not curious about the audience, if you're not curious about how do I make them take the action I want? If you're not curious about innovation, or the category you're in, it's if you don't take that initiative out of curiosity, then it's going to be forced and it's never going to be right.

So a really good marketer is curious. They get under the hood, they look at, you know, all of the way things work or where the intersections where's the place that I can live or my brand can live, or the space, the allowable space for us to participate in? I think that's the key to to good marketers. And I see it.

I see it in the people, the young people who come in, the ones who are curious. They have that fire in their belly. They have that that spark they want to know, the ones who aren't or are always trying to force fit it and it doesn't. It doesn't work. So be curious. Really look at every sort of opportunity and look at those squiggly lines.

Daniel Burstein : Well, thank you for satiating our curiosity. So, Andy, and sharing all this from your career, thanks so much for being here.

Sandy Rubinstein : I pleasure my pleasure. Any time, I hope I hope this is helpful to your to your audience.

Daniel Burstein : Oh, absolutely. And thank you to everyone in our audience for listening.

Outro : Thank you for joining us for how I made it and marketing with Daniel Burstein. Now that you've got an inspiration for transforming yourself as a marketer, get some ideas for your next marketing campaign. From Marketing Sherpas extensive library of free case studies at Marketing sherpa.com. That's marketing rpa.com and.