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SUMMARY:
I talked to Dr. Yaniv Zaid, CEO, The Art of Persuasion, about the power of clear messaging, turning failures into assets, his top insights for culturally nuanced marketing, and naptime. |
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One of the biggest transformations in my career came when I went from trying to sell people with my writing, to trying to help them.
Helping people understand whether a product or service is truly right for them creates long-term trust. So does helping them even when they don’t buy from you.
Not only is this more effective, but my work is part of my life. My soul doesn’t magically leave my body during the workweek. And it is fulfilling to help people – both morally and financially.
So when I read this lesson in a podcast guest application, it struck a chord – "Clear, simple language can cut through the noise and drive results." I knew I wanted to sit down with the man behind it, and see what we can learn from him.
I talked to Dr. Yaniv Zaid, CEO, The Art of Persuasion, and author 11 books (most recently The 21st Century Sales Bible).
Tune in to the full episode using this embedded player or by clicking through to your preferred audio streaming service using the links below it.
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Early in his career, Dr. Zaid worked with a major insurance company that struggled to simplify its sales pitch. By refining their message to be clear and direct, they saw a 30% increase in client conversion within three months. It was a powerful reminder that clear, simple language can cut through the noise and drive results.
During a consulting project in Asia, Dr. Zaid learned firsthand the importance of adapting marketing strategies to different cultural contexts. What worked in Europe didn’t translate directly, and by working closely with local teams, they built a campaign that resonated deeply with the market. This adaptability has been a cornerstone of his approach ever since.
Dr. Zaid’s early attempts to launch his first book didn’t go as planned. Instead of seeing it as a setback, he analyzed what went wrong and used those insights for his next project, “Persuade and Influence Any Audience.” The book became an international bestseller and remains a staple on Amazon’s lists since 2012.
Dr. Zaid also discussed the resonance of stories of resurrection and overcoming failures, mentioning Donald Trump's sequence of success and failure in business as an example, which Trump recounted in his book “The Art of the Deal.” Narratives featuring challenges and subsequent triumphs can be compelling, and those stories are particularly powerful at engaging and inspiring people.
Another failure of his own that he mentioned was thanking people on a webinar for attending his webinar instead of popular cultural events going on at the same time. He noticed that right after he mentioned this, a lot of people left his webinar. His lesson – never remind the customer of the competition.
And the competition isn’t necessarily a directly competitive company, as in Dr. Zaid’s case when the ‘competition’ was a soccer match and TV show.
In another example, Dr. Zaid said that in an interview he heard, Reed Hastings mentioned that Netflix’s biggest competition is sleep because they aim to keep people awake when watching their content, usually consumed towards the end of the day.
via Jordan Belfort, "The Wolf of Wall Street"
Collaborating with Belfort on a sales workshop was an intense experience that taught Dr. Zaid the art of audience engagement. Watching Belfort command a room reinforced his understanding of effective storytelling as a tool for persuasion.
via Tony Robbins
Robbins, known for his incredible stamina and engaging seminars, serves as an example of maintaining authenticity while managing perceptions. Unlike Robbins' seemingly superhuman ability to conduct workshops without sustenance, Dr. Zaid, upon attending one of Robbins' events, discovered the behind-the-scenes strategies Robbins employed to sustain energy, such as consuming small amounts of food discreetly.
This revelation highlights the importance of authenticity and human relatability. Dr. Zaid uses the metaphor of preferring Batman over Superman to illustrate the power of vulnerability and relatability in inspiring and connecting with others. Batman, unlike Superman, is a human who overcomes limitations through tools and determination, making his achievements feel attainable and inspiring.
This principle applies equally to marketing and entrepreneurship, where portraying genuine, relatable experiences, including failures, can deepen customer connections and enhance business appeal.
via Gil Peretz
Peretz, a highly regarded Israeli now based in Silicon Valley, emphasizes the power of positivity in influencing and engaging audiences. Through his work on the speeches of Barack Obama and his teachings on sales and public speaking, Peretz has demonstrated how positive thinking can greatly enhance the effectiveness of communication.
Dr. Zaid shared a personal anecdote to illustrate this point: during a fundraising event, while others focused on their financial despair to solicit funds, he chose to spotlight achievements and aspirations, resulting in a more successful appeal. This shift from a negative to a positive approach not only secured funding but also highlighted the importance of hope and inspiration in messaging.
This narrative underscores the idea that positive messages resonate more deeply with people, encouraging support and engagement, a principle especially relevant for entrepreneurs and business owners aiming to inspire their audience amidst a landscape often dominated by negative media.
Clarity Trumps Persuasion: How changing the first seven seconds of user experience drove a 201% gain
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Not ready for a listen yet? Interested in searching the conversation? No problem. Below is a rough transcript of our discussion.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Every salesperson and every entrepreneur will hear much more know in meeting failures, because now is a failure, right? Much more now than yes. And if you go to ten meetings with, with them and with, for example, investors, a one out of no. Ten now in one of 2 or 4 out of 20, we walked away and we would like we would like to investigate.
We also I participated for ten years at least in a in a book, first international book says worldwide and I sell the rights of books to publishing houses. A lead to agents worldwide, usually in out of 2030 meetings. I would have one saying to me, okay, I'm interesting in your book everything is send it, send me the PDF, and then one of two will tell me, okay, I would like to publish your book in my country.
So you do many, many things. You get you get the if you send the joint there, you know, people always see the success. They don't see the lab hours and delivers all the failures.
Intro: Welcome to how I made it in marketing from marketing Sherpa. We scour pitches from hundreds of creative leaders and uncover specific examples, not just trending ideas or buzzword laden schmaltz. Real world examples to help you transform yourself as a marketer. Now here's your host, the senior Director of Content and Marketing at Marketing Sherpa, Daniel Burstein, to tell you about today's guest.
Daniel Burstein: One of the biggest transformations in my career came when I went from trying to sell people with my writing to trying to help them. Helping people understand whether a product or service is truly right for them creates long term trust, so it is helping them even when they don't buy from you. Not only is this more effective, but you know my work is part of my life.
My soul doesn't magically leave my body during the workweek, and it is fulfilling to help people both morally and financially from what I've learned. So when I read this lesson in a podcast guest application, it really struck a chord. Clear, simple language can cut through the noise and drive results. Clear, simple language that sounds pretty helpful to me.
So I knew I wanted to sit down with the man behind it and see what we can learn from him. Joining me now is Doctor Yannis. I lead the owner of the global brand Doctor Persuasion, and the CEO of the company the Art of persuasion. Thanks for joining me, doctor Z.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Hi. Thank you. Daniel. It's great being here. It's a real privilege to talk to.
Daniel Burstein: And it's a privilege for me. Let's take a look at doctor's needs. Background. So, you know I'm talking to you. He has a PhD in law from the University of Haifa. He is the author of 11 books, including, most recently, the 21st Century Sales Bible. He founded the Art of persuasion 21 years ago. It has $1 million a year in revenue, and he oversees ten employees.
So before we jump into all these lessons from your career, from all the research you've done, give us a sense. What is your day like as the owner of the Art of persuasion?
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Well, I first of all, I try to balance my life between, you know, my career, my kids, my wife and my work. And, and every day. Look, it doesn't look the same. Usually I get up very early, 5:00 am, and I drink something. I, I am a morning guy, so immediately, I can, half an hour later, start going through my emails and I WhatsApp messages, messages, messages.
So it takes me around a half an hour or an hour and then, around 8:00 am, I start talking to people by phone. Usually I have, consulting meetings with companies. I have an office in Tel Aviv in Israel. So either way, it's by zoom, if it's internationally or if it's, here in my office, I start the meeting.
Entrepreneurs, start ups, small business owners and the managers of big companies. Sometimes it's in their, companies, sometimes by zoom, sometimes in my, in my office. And I help them to know where, let's say, improve their public speaking abilities, marketing abilities, sensibilities, how they increase their income, etc.. Usually around noon, eat lunch with my kids.
I have an office at my at my house, a big house in Israel. So I have an office there, and I eat lunch with my kids, maybe my wife, if she comes from work, and then, sometimes I go back to work, sometimes a, little nap. I try to nap, 3 or 4 times a week because, when you take a nap at noon, then you have two days.
Each day is like, actually two days of work, you know, you come, you get up after a, you know, a powerful an app or like, like, like a new, a new person. And this is a habit that started when I, provided lectures. I will be providing lectures and workshops, usually in the evening, abroad and in Israel for the last 20, 21 years.
So when you are, you know, performing at seven, eight, 9 p.m., then you need to be at your best, you know, so you can get up at the 5:00 am and then be powerful at 9:00 without taking a nap at noon. And so usually in afternoon, I consult more to companies, to entrepreneurs, and then, and then usually I lecture at night.
I also, provide a lot of, media coverage in a, you know, in the, in this in, in media, in Israel and in other countries. Usually when I promote my books, I go to to I go to other, I travel to other countries to promote my books also to provide lectures and workshops. So, I spend something like I live in Tel Aviv in Israel.
I spend something like, one, between 1 and 2 weeks, in each month away, away from home. And then my schedule is different. Usually I if all day, workshop, full day workshops or many, many meetings and I try to work up, let's say 3 to 5 times a week, running the two times running at two times going to the gym and woke up.
This is something I also, I am a big fan of, of Maccabi Haifa. Haifa is my the I was born in Israel. Okabe Haifa is one of the biggest, teams football teams in Israel. So I'm a big fan as well. So when to have a game and watch the game. So again, it's it's right to balance between, let's say with out of seven nights a week, three nights a lecture away and four nights I spend with my family.
I love to be at home as well. So it's all the time, you know, to find the balance between your career, your kids, your, your spouse in your in your, you know, goals.
Daniel Burstein: This this. I mean, this is episode well over 100. I don't know exact number. It'll be 116. And I've heard, you know, when you when you ask a lot of the same questions to a lot of the same type of people, you find a pattern and responses. Right? I have never heard anyone say take a nap. That is fascinating, especially for the type of alpha personalities that people have.
So like if you put a timer on like how does that.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: How does that work? Yeah, I put a timer usually at least one hour. I after after lunch, I take a nap. Usually I do my, the woke up my woke up exercise early in the morning or late at night. It was I prefer late at night when your mind is free. And, you know, I am very creative, so usually I, I also meditate sometimes, let's say two, three times a week.
So when I meditate or woke up early or I do exercise, then, then I have lots of, innovative, innovative talks, you know, so, so I love it. But yeah, when they, you know, I was in the flight academy in Israel. Okay? I was in the Israeli Navy, the Israeli Air Force. So, so when you fly at night, then you need to sleep at noon, okay?
Because otherwise you won't be, full functioning at night. So I in the Army, I got used to sleep. To sleep, at noon. Okay. If you again, you get up very early and you go out, you go. You go back to sleep in the middle of the night. So you need to have a break in the middle of the day.
And then afterwards, when I start lecturing in almost every night I was away from and I, again, it was I had to be the best version of myself. I needed to take it, take a nap that could break in the middle of the day. So, yeah, I thought of it. By the way, I think that, it's good, it's good, it's good habits.
And they, Again, the advantage is that every day looks like two days. You know, sometimes my wife, when we, go to sleep, let's say 10 p.m.. I remember a week ago this morning when we did with me, when we did this in this, you know, something like that, because, you know, it looks like, you know, three days past, but it was just this morning.
Daniel Burstein: I love that because, you know, again, alpha personality, we try to push, push, push, push, push. But marketing is an idea industry. And you need to do whatever you can to get those ideas. So the other thing, it makes me feel good because you said your morning person. I know it's kind of late in the day there.
It's it's early here. And I felt bad for getting you on late. But this is your day two of today. Day two of.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: This.
Daniel Burstein: Day or whatever day it is.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yeah. This is my, Yeah, actually, formally, this is my nap time. Okay, but no problem. I can feel it later. But again, sometimes you don't, you are very busy, and you have a full day schedule, so it's okay, but I try again. Three times a week at least. The middle of the week to to have a nap.
You know, you know, I, I sometimes I was, is, is, I was once in a conference, United States and I said I slept in a friend's house, and then I came and I had the jetlag for me. You know, there's very big a big difference in the hours. So I came after a long flight and I took a nap.
Okay. And there is not a just came from, from school. She saw me sleeping, and then I went to a conference as each day came in the afternoon, and I took a nap of one hour because, again, the jetlag and is not there all the time. So me so being asleep, when she came back from the kindergarten or the school?
School. So she called me nap next time. And so also after I, I left back to Isabelle, she said to my friend, she didn't remember my name. She said, where is naptime? And, you know, like a superhero, you know, you need to help everyone. Okay, I will do it. Just it's 2:00 and they can sleep, so talk to me in two hours or something like that.
Daniel Burstein: Let me take a nap. All right, well, let's see what we can learn from, the career of nap time, man. First we take a look at some lessons we learned from the thing he's made. As I've said before, you know, I've never worked in another career. I've never been a podiatrist or, an actuary or something.
But one thing I think we get to do in marketing is we get to build things, and I love that. So let's take a look at some of the lessons we think from some of the things you made. The first lesson you said is clarity is powerful for persuasion. So how did you learn this lesson?
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Well, clarity, you know, again, when you talk to entrepreneurs, when you talk to business owners and you ask them, what do you do? Describe your business, describe, you know, there was the elevator pitch. Okay. So if people are struggling to do to to explain what they do, even if they do it for ten years, 20 years, you know, they do it for a long time.
They they build a business, you know, they, they need to, to, to, to understand it the most. But usually they don't do they don't know what to say. So when they don't know what to say, they start talking about the solutions. Now, about the technical aspects, about the, you know, for example, if I said, of course, I would start talking to you about the engine and if I said cosmetic products, I would start talking to you about the, about the, you know, the ingredients of the of the product.
Okay. And if I had a like the company, I start talking to you about the code of the of the car because I am an engineer and I, coded it myself. But what I teach clients. So this is a, again, one that once I realized that the very out of conversations with many entrepreneurs, the small medium business owners and marketers is the principle here in marketing is sell the problem before selling the solution.
Okay? Because usually people talk about the solution and you don't understand, you know, you're not clear enough. And I say the client doesn't care about the solution. The car cares about his or her problem. So, for example, if you take, no, a bouquet of flowers. Okay. So if you take a regular bouquet of flowers and a bouquet of flowers, you can charge, let's say, $100, right?
But if you call it a bridal bouquet, so you can charge, you know, a bouquet of flowers for the wedding. You know, you can charge 3 to 5 times more, you know, 300, $500. Now, those are the same flowers. So what is the difference? They need? Because when I sell, when I market flowers for the wedding. Right.
Okay. I'm not actually selling flowers. I'm selling, you know, the winning image of, of a bride, a queen for a day at the million dollar feeling. And the the picture is, you know, that they they will have a photo albums. And ten years from now, the bride and groom will sit with the kids and, and, look at the album and say, oh, look how beautiful mommy was with the flowers.
And for years from now, they will sit with their grandkids to say, oh, you look how beautiful grandmother was. So this is what I saw. So once I realized that most people focus on the problem, I started telling them what you need to be more, you know, to clarify your message. Meaning talking to talk about what it what the clients care about.
It cares about not what you care about. And start talking about the problem. So many companies, start up companies, insurance companies, banks. I talk to them about, show the problem before the solution, and then people will understand you better because they don't need to be professionals like you are. They just need to know where to know how.
It helps them with their problems or their pains.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. I wonder if you could give us a specific example. I know there's a, like a 30% increase in conversions within three months for an insurance company. Because, you know, this is what I love when I read this lesson because this is something that our founder, Flint McLaughlin, said something very specifically said, clarity trumps persuasion and persuasion in the sense of instead of having that persuasive language, you know, once the founder of MK labs I, which is a parent company of marketing Sherpa, and when he teaches it, he gives, he gives, he's one of the things he does is gives you three questions that your landing page should answer right away in the
first few seconds to be clear. Right. Because it's it's hard for us to be clear, right? We're working at a companies every day. We're so we've got all this stuff going on her head. So there's three questions to answer on your landing page. B where am I? What can I do here and why should I do it right?
So for you, doctor Z, I wonder if you could talk us through that example where there was a 30% increase in conversions? Yeah, the insurance company and and insurance is so complex. Like how did you help them be clear.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Great, great. So insurance by the way I help high tech companies or banks or insurance companies. Other companies which there have they complicated the, products and services explained better because I focus, owned on the messages that the client needs to hear. So when I. Yeah, when I worked with international, a big insurance company, you know, selling insurance is very, tricky, you know, because if you, if you sell, for example, health insurance.
Okay, let me ask you, who is more profitable for you to sell it to a healthy person or to a sick person?
Daniel Burstein: Oh, to health person, of course, a healthy.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Person, of course. Yeah, yeah. And if you if you sell, for example, for example, life insurance, is it easier for you the best for business model to be profitable you need to sell it to, let's say 20 years old or 60 years old.
Daniel Burstein: Oh yeah, 20 year old for sure.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yeah. But okay, this is the catch. This is a problem because when you go to a healthy person and say, I would like to sell you a health insurance, said, why, I know I don't have any problems, you know, talk to me 20 years from now or talk to me whenever there is a problem or even if I say, if I tell you you need, you know, you are in a very, high risk group that something can happen to you.
You know, you can get cancer or something. Yeah. I tried to say, oh, no, you just scare me, you know, you bad insurance guy. You know, you just try to scare me. I don't need that insurance. And you just try to persuade me, okay? So this is one catch. And if I sell a life insurance for 20 or 30 years old, I will say to them, you know, you need to have life insurance.
You say, no, no, no, I'm too young and I'm too young and I'm not struggling in my life. I don't have money, you know, to to pay your each month for, for insurance when I'm not, when I'm now just starting my life and growing young kids etc.. Talk to me. What I am 50 years old, something like that.
So if the insurance company came to me when she had very difficult a difficult time selling insurance to people, especially to healthy people and to young people. So all the messages we did is expanding young people, right? They need to buy now, not 20, 30 years from now, the life insurance and to expand healthy people right now is is the the best time to buy the health insurance, for example.
So the message for healthy people, healthy people was this is the time to do health insurance. First of all, you get the best rate because you're healthy. You don't have a problem. Second of all, once you have a disease, the insurance company doesn't pay you. It doesn't pay you because of the disease. So it doesn't allow you to put this disease into the insurance, you know, because if you do it now, so do it in front, then all the diseases will be in your policy and then you will get money for everything, right?
Not not when you have a problem. If only you can. You never know what's going to happen. And then we brought statistics in there. And you know, when research and we show case studies that people like you when you when they were 25 suddenly get cancer, or you can be in a car accident tomorrow or something like that.
So you're not trying to, to, to intimidate people, but you tell them realistic, the realistic reality that something can happen to them. And if they have kids, the the message was you need to worry about your kids. So if you do insurance, you pay us a little because you healthy, but your kids will be safe and you will be safe and everything will be covered so you can go along with your life.
You just need to put that every month, a small a small amount to the insurance company. So we have a really a real, transformation in selling insurance, health insurance for healthy people. Now, we went to sell life insurance. We went to young people. So they say, why? Why should they need to do it now? And then we said, because if you save money, you better save it from when we are young, not when you are old.
Right? If you start saving, you know, do we have the interest? So if you start saving when you are 30 years old, three zero if you have great money or more money, when you will be 65 or 70, then if you start saving when you are 50. So even though you now you are struggling when you are young with your financial, you know, position, it's more it's more you can put a small amount of money in every month.
But with the interest and with the rates today you have more money and you show them, you know, the the, the statistic. And when again, we explain to them that this is the time to do it, not not 20, 30 years from now. And if they delay, they will get, much, much less money. And again, we show them statistics, we show, we show the research, we show them, you know, with a testimonials of a of a young people like them, etc..
So we build a campaign and the result was increase of 30% revenue, in the insurance company. And again and I did the workshops to all the, the employees and explained to them what they, what they expected to do. And so now that the that you need to know how to sell health insurance to healthy people and, you know, life insurance for young people against their instinct, they need to start investing now because most people they don't know, they don't know, they don't want to talk about numbers.
You know, they don't know how much money they they earn or something that you need to to first. Then before them talk about numbers now and show them why it's beneficial for them to start investing now.
Daniel Burstein: And I think that's a great example of what we're talking about earlier. I help people don't hype them. Right. So there are ways to sell insurance to where you could promise the moon and then okay, the fine print takes away. And and I don't know about those insurance products specifically, but when I hear you talking about this, like, these are kind of the conversations I've been having with my own cats, I like trying to explain to them how the world works.
And so, yes, if you do it correctly, me, I think you can be a successful company with that clarity and help. Just kind of teach and inform that they can see that this this thing is in their best interest and hopefully to, you know, with insurance or other products when it's not okay, when, hey, this this isn't going to be a fit for you.
So anyway.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: This, this great marketing is about, you know, inspiration and not desperation because most, insurance agents, what they did is they, they try to intimidate the clients and try to dissuade them and tell them, you need you. You can be sick tomorrow or you can buy die tomorrow. You will be left without nothing or something like that. And then clients, they don't want to be intimated.
And then they just, you know, started to say, okay, okay, don't frighten me. Okay. I, I'm good, I'm good. I know what they're doing. And they, you know, they, they hold you back. So instead of direct marketing and you know in that in this for people, we talked about inspiration. We have more money. You have more influence. You can you can go and go out and live your life.
And you want your you got you got to go back. Okay. It's before three that you do it. Now you have a relative advantage over other, over others. If you start saving now and your friends will start saving then 20 years from now. So inspiration and not desperation. I believe this is the very strong marketing principle today in 2024.
Daniel Burstein: No, that's good, because also when you talk about a product like insurance, a lot of times the biggest competition is no decision. And so that's true. If you kind of take that negative approach, then they might just be like, I forgot, I don't want to deal with this now. I don't want to deal with this. Let me just go on YouTube or TikTok and watch something.
Well, let's talk about I'm glad you mentioned the kind of global nature of, your, the work you've done. And you said one of the key lessons was, understand cultural nuances. So can you tell us the story of how you learned about understanding cultural nuances and the importance in marketing?
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yeah, yeah. First of all, why am I delivered so far more than 2500 lectures and workshops in the in four continents, in more than 20 countries. Some of them I come again and again and, I come to United States a lot and they come to, to, to in Southeast Asia, like some countries like China and Vietnam and India and, even Russia and sometimes Europe.
By the way, I talk most mostly I talk in my lectures and workshops, in my books about the subconscious level and how to and I turn it into it on a conscious level. But but our mind is the same, you know, Americans, Vietnamese, Chinese people, these very people. We think we think alike. This is why I saw, for example, my latest book, the 21st century says by by listening to 12 languages, the same book, you know, because American publisher and Russian publisher and Chinese publisher bought the same book because maybe they do a little bit of adaptation, but but it's relevant.
But what I realized sometimes is the different thing in the mentality is that the entrepreneurs or business owners, for example, in Asia, they are more conservative. For example, an American entrepreneur or an Israeli entrepreneur immediately would like to exploit his knowledge, you know, exploit the company, think about building more branches, because his idea is, is that they I have a great idea.
Let's share it with everyone. And maybe I have more and more tools how to share it. What I realized in Asia when I talked about how to grow your community or how to expand your business, is that many entrepreneurs there, they don't believe that the people will carry about their business. You know, for example, if I start a company in Vietnam and not only do I not think I can succeed the United States or or China, but they even don't believe I can do it in Vietnam.
So you know, in, in, in sales and marketing, you have you have the being, you have the doing doing is what you need to do. You know, what to what to write, what to talk, who to talk to build a plan. But there is a being. There is the the mentality is mentality that you need to have as an entrepreneur or as a business owner.
It's sometimes in Asia I found it that they, they, they lack of this, mental, mental, strong mentality. And then I need to, to build this in my workshop before I started talking about what to do. Because if you tell someone, okay, no problem, just find a a I how you build a company in Vietnam, just find some Chinese investors and find some Indian.
You know, where, clients. And that's how start selling to them. But if they don't believe in it so they don't know what to do. And even if they do it and they don't believe in it, then they won't get results, you know? So the being is the doing a combine. So, the principle is the market. The principle are the same in all, all over the world.
You know, personal attention said the problem before the solution. Social proof. It's all. It's all it's all again. I just came back from from the biggest, and GSS Global Speakers Association, a seminar association. All the if you know, probably United States, and say National Speakers Association and, and all the groups of speakers. So I belong to this organization and they had the once in two years.
We have a great, a good a great, conference this time. The annual conference was a in in Indonesia, in Bali. And I met 400 lectures from all over the world from, you know, Africa and Australia, New Zealand, the United States, France, Great Britain, etc. and they all share the same knowledge and they all, you know, think about the same problems.
And it's the the difference is not the tools, the difference is the, the mentality. So when you come to a to a different target audience, you each understand what what tools you provide and what did you need to, you know, to build the confidence before you provide them the tools in order for them to implement the tools.
Daniel Burstein: Can you? So that's great in a specific situation, but can you give us like a specific example of how you learned a specific cultural difference for our audience when they're going to new market? For example, we interviewed one.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Burstein: I'll give you one example while you're lying in their interview, Tim Peters is CMO of In-house Systems on how I made it in marketing. And one of his lessons was adapt your marketing to reflect cultural nuances for global success. And he told a story of how, when his Canadian based, publicly traded multinational expanded into Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, they had to they actually had product marketing folks on the ground in market.
They weren't just researching headquarters. And they discovered that to succeed in those markets, they needed in-country face to face presence, which wasn't true in other markets. So again, they had for them, it was having product marketing foot folks, boots on the ground, not just researching at headquarters. So do you have a specific example of, okay, how how did you learn, cultural difference?
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yeah, yeah. First of all, this reminds me of a quick example that I, you don't see me because I'm an audio, but now I have a,
Daniel Burstein: And he's a very handsome man. If you're not saying he's a very handsome man.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: I don't I don't like, I don't like, going to Italian, in a suit. Okay. Like when I, lecture in India or in Vietnam, they actually force me to wear a tie. And so because they say, well, in Vietnam, in India, if they see an expert, they, they expect him to wear a tie in suit.
So if you don't wear a tie and so if you you're not an expert. Okay. And I dress say no casual semi casual, but know the, the the mentality and requires me to, to to to be dressed different okay.
Daniel Burstein: But if people can't see me, I'll mention I'm dressed like a Merrill Lynch banker. I've got a three piece suit. Sorry. God.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yeah. So, Yeah. And so. So an example can be that, you mentioned the face to face, but, when we talked about personal tension, this works. Okay. I have a great example, in Israel, where we have in Israel a Western culture, we have very direct sometimes that they, for example, you offer me, something to drink.
Okay. I come to meet you and you say in the in the beginning of the meeting, would you like something to drink? So. So what I teach you say, yes, of course, I would like to drink and then you ask me a cold. We call a hot drink. I would need to say hot drink. Why? Because then we have more time together.
We have. We can go to the kitchen, prepare some coffee or tea. Okay. And then once you prefer me to make coffee or tea, then I have more time with you. Right in the in the assessment. But if you go to, for example, Southeast Asia, then if you ask them, would you like something to drink immediately, they will say no, even if they are thirsty or something.
Why? Because for them, if they ask you something in the beginning, it it make them look weak and and maybe not not prepared and maybe they came, you know, thirsty. So they didn't prepare properly. And, and this immediately needs something for you or something that. So they feel embarrassed, they feel shy. So they say no, and I say, say yes.
Not not only because you're thirsty. Even if you are not sure, we say yes because you need to have this. But this bonding, you know, with the with the client and to have the, the time to prepare a coffee to together prepared or something like that. Okay. So once I told them you need to ask the client something to drink this, they looked at me.
What? What's the oh, for example, to change seats. Okay. If they go to a meeting room and I would like to sit to sit next to you, not in front of you, because in front of you, then we have a table in between us. And I would like to be comfortable with you. I would like to have the person attention, so I need to move the chair a little bit to sit next to you.
Not in front of you. Now it's in Asia. They don't do it. You know, if if the someone. So organize the, the, the conference room in a certain way, they won't change seats. They won't change. You know, the, the the the the positioning of the of the chairs, for example, even if it was by accident or something like that.
So I, I talk to them how to, to change the setup. They said not only in the mind but the set up of the room in order to gain more results in their when, when they negotiate or when they talk to people. So this is the a few examples of of different mentalities between the nations.
Daniel Burstein: Right. I hear that, but so let me ask you this way. But when you're going into a new market with a company, how do you learn that? So I, I get the you've kind of acquired this wisdom over time, but is there any technique you do to go in and learn. Because also might be different for like you're talking about Asia, it might be different for like insurance versus a restaurant or.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know. So like just quick methodology used to be like all right let me learn this more. Yeah.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: I, I the information is how do you know we are in 2024. We are in the digital era. Everything is out there. You need to listen to podcasts. You need to read books. You need to ask people who are before if you are employees in a company and you're going for the first time, for example, the company works with Singapore.
You're going with them for the first time or or, you know, in France. Okay. So there are different mentalities. So ask people when they were ready, what can they share with you? I recommend highly recommend to talk to people who succeeded in their job, not people who made the mistakes, you know, but talk to people who podcast, you know, gain information, read books.
It's, you know, we talked about the nap and nap time first. So don't be afraid to to ask people, to ask people. Sometimes people are, you know, where I don't need to ask. You know, everything you know, or I'm Superman. Not back. Then we going to talk about it, so. No. So. So be human. You know, that's it is very, very important.
And by the way, even if you are different, you have different mentality. You know, when I go to and this is something I learned over time because I, I be lecturing for 21 years now to be myself, to be the best version of myself. Because if, for example, I came once to a to a trick and, an audience that that was, in average, very, very old, okay, let's say something like 70, 80 years old, people.
And I was when 27, 30, something like that in the, the organizers asked me to talk slow. Now you see my energy, you see, you hear, you hear my energy. And I, you know, and gym we you know, we on jet we talk fast. So they tell me talk slow and then I talk to people. And I said, well it's very important if you, if you sell to someone, sell the problem before the solution.
And in my head I'm thinking, oh you're stupid. Oh, you you you look like stupid. The man. Okay. Yeah. They, they think you're a child or something like that. And after I after ten minutes like this, one of the members of the audience raise their hand. And she has told me. Can I ask you for something? I said, yes, can you speak a little bit slower so I automotive that's it, that's it.
And of the persuasion I bring my energy. I bring my authenticity. This is who I am. You can force me to be someone else. You know, I very funny in my lectures. I can be not funny. I talk fast, but I bring lots of energy. I don't know to do it otherwise. So everyone has audience, you know.
So if I bring a certain perspective, unique perspective on myself, then it's okay. By the way, the fact that I can help Americans, for example, I know an Israeli, not American, is I don't need to be, you know, John Smith or Daniel Muslim from other states. I need to be doctor persuasion, doctor. And if I come from Israel and I bring unique perspective as, Jewish people, as, entrepreneur from Israel, startup nation.
So you don't need to be someone else so you can come to a different mentality, to a different market, and you can adapt yourself a little bit. But the I emphasize they adapt. You don't need to change your message just to change yourself. Be the best version of yourself and adapt a little bit. But it's okay to be you.
And this is how you sell, by the way. This is how you sell. This is how you market the best way.
Daniel Burstein: Then that's true. That's it's your value proposition. That is at the end of the day. But one thing I, like you said about understanding your audience is about listening to podcasts and reading the books and doing some of the things I had a question before I answer on the Marking Server blog, and someone wrote in and they said, hey, I'm not a native English speaker.
Could I ever be successful as a copywriter? And I replied, and I said, we're all not native in some ways. Like earlier in my career, I worked in more B2C marketing when I went into B2B marketing and more software like, yes, I spoke. I am fortunate that I speak English, which is frankly the international language of business, and I work with some international companies and that was helpful.
But I didn't speak software and I didn't speak tech, and I needed to learn that. And so what I did was, I mean, I've read I subscribe to every bit. This is a long time ago, but every business magazine, I can get my hand on that each week. And all of the ones in that industry, because you just need to kind of let it sink into you and wash over you to understand that language, or you lose credibility.
And then, as you said, once you understand that language and can speak that language, so to speak, in that industry or culture, whatever, then be yourself.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: And not be of.
Daniel Burstein: Someone else.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: And I can tell you from my personal experience, because first of all, English is my second language. Hebrew is my first language. So I and I learned English and I all the time, you know, where practice English. And I have a mentor in business English. And sometimes I if I have a big lecture in the conference, I abroad and then I practice with him.
But it's okay to be a you you don't need to be you know, again, I need to be myself, not someone else. And I need to be the best version of myself. And if your content is good, even if it's an oral, you know, in lecture or by marketing writing, if your content is good, the people will listen to you and people will read you and hear you.
Okay, so, what what what did people look for is, is a great content, you know, and a great energy, by the way. Not not there specifically. You know, the language and accent is not relevant because, you know, even if the Silicon Valley today, you go to California, you have, you know, Chinese accent, Indian accent, Israeli accent, you know, Spanish accent.
You have all kinds of accidental accent is irrelevant and content is is what's important. If you are good enough and your content is good enough, people, people will listen. And again, marketing is also a language because because the what I realized in my 21 years of experience is that, for example, how can I sell or and I also do marketing writing, and I wrote scripts for, you know, companies, car companies, cosmetic companies, insurance companies, bank companies.
I wrote to bank, I wrote the, you know, awards for, you know, landing pages of websites for banks. I don't have an accountant and I work for politicians. I don't vote for. And I walk with, for example, cosmetic company and I and I sold, you know, anti-aging products for women 55 years old. And I was a man, young man, you know, 40, 45, 50 years old.
So I'm not the target audience. So how can I do it? Because I don't need to understand the the chemical ingredients of the cosmetic product. I need to understand why people buy it. I need to understand what the woman who just got up when she's 65, you see wrinkles on their face. What does she feel? If I understand, what does she feel?
I can okay, this is the problem. I can solve the solution, the product as a solution without elaborating. You know, the the ingredients, especially ingredients. And I can sell. I can sell cars to people without understanding the engine. The, the, our engine of the car works, you know, just by understanding why people buy it. For example, I work with car companies in the in the car, you know I conferences and they will you bring lots of models sitting next to the cars, the models.
They don't understand how the car operates, I can assure you. But but the target audience is men, businessmen between 40 and 70. They would like to buy the sports car. Okay, so. So the model or the the salesperson, they just need to explain to them a little bit to, to to listen to them, to understand what they really need and then tell them about the car.
That is the perfect solution for them because people would like to feel, you know, more, you know, more manly and more and more mature or more young or more sportive or something like that. So the car is the answer to your way to your wishes. So you don't need to understand about the car. I'm not expecting anything when I'm in a in a car exhibition.
I don't expect every person to understand how the engine operates. I do need to understand to to to. I do want to talk about myself as a client. So marketing is a language is like all languages you need to to follow it. And what you talked about the principle of it said the problem for the solution is one of the key elements of this language.
Daniel Burstein: Okay. Well, when I asked you about, also how to learn, you know, in different cultures, you talked about one of the things you mentioned, this is talk to the successful people, but and not the people who aren't successful, which makes a lot of sense. But one of your other lessons is turn failures into learning opportunities. And I really like this lesson because I didn't come up with this.
I'm sure someone else I've heard someone say, this is like, if you're not failing, then you think you're being good. No, no, no, you need to be failing because then you're not pushing the envelope enough. If you're not failing. So how do you learn this lesson? Turn failures into learning opportunity.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yeah, yeah. First of all, I can tell you that in sales and marketing, you hear lots of no, you hear more no than yes. Right. And if people sometimes work with small and medium businesses owners and they say to me, I, I sell to everyone, if you call me, then I can say to you, I have 100% conversion, right?
So I tell them two things. First, you don't have enough phone calls. Second, the only phone calls. You got this from your mother. And, you know, and from the mother, because there is a conversion rate, you know, there is a statistic all over the world. So, so every salesperson, every entrepreneur will hear much more. No meaning failures because now is a failure, right?
Much more no than yes. And if you go to ten meetings, we we said and we for example a investors a one out of no ten now in one of 2 or 4 out of 20, we want to and we would like, we would like to invest in you and also I participate for ten years of this in a, in a book fairs, international book fairs worldwide.
And I sell the rights of my books to publishing houses only to agents worldwide, usually in out of 2030 meetings, I would have one saying to me, okay, I'm interested in your book. Give it a send it, send me the PDF and then one of two will tell me, okay, I would like to publish your book in my country.
So you do many, many things to get to get the. If you put the percentage and the, you know, people always see the success, they don't see the lab hours and the libraries are the failures. You know, the, the, the amount of times you, you know, and the and the and the and the failures you do. I can tell you a good if if you I did I, you know, participated in a in hundreds of webinars, some of which of mine, some of I was a guest in others, others a podcast, hundreds of chapters, a podcast out of webinars, hundreds of conferences, future conferences.
And, and there was one time I had the to my community. I have a big community in Hebrew and English, of a few tens of thousands of people, more than 20,000 people today. And I had a webinar and I invested many, much money and energy to bring people to the webinar. And I started the evening, and there was, I think, 500 people online.
And what I didn't know, in arena is that in the just the same, the same day, at the same day, there was a the final of, Champions League in Europe, and it was, the final of American Idol in the United States. Now, I did not, because at first I'm not a follower. I love football.
I didn't see American Idol. And second of all, I scheduled it, you know, a month ago. So. So I realized that there was a show today. Now, the first one of the first principle, when you talk to audiences is to, to to compliment the audience. Okay. So I started my, my webinar and I see, you know, online 500 people there, and they are telling me something like, well, congratulations for everyone who is here.
We're going to have a great night. I appreciate the fact that we are here, especially because those now the final of the Champions League and you chose to be with me. And then I look, at the number of people and I see hundreds of 100 people. That's me. Immediately the well, they said to themselves, what there is champions League.
Oh my God, for God. And they went and and I didn't realize that that they made so, so huge. So I continue to say, and if you don't like football again, I'm happy that you chose me and not the final of American Idol. Then I see not the 200 people. If I say this, you know, 150 people out of 500 said to myself, oh my God.
And then I realized I, you know, I, I did the mistake and I started the webinar as usual. But, many people left me. I sent them all the recording, by the way. But then I realized the very, a very, a big important, principle, which is never talk about the competition, never talk about competitors, because, you know, sometimes you can talk to a client.
And I am a, a and I have competitors back, and I look like I am a and I am better than B and I better than C. So the client asks who is B? We see no united high war that my my they did. They are very very important. But the client they know me. They don't know others.
So even if they were trying to to close with me, then they won't close anything. Now. They will. They will look for B and C to get their proposal out of them as well. So the principle I teach from them is don't talk about the competition, because sometimes the competition is the alternative. You mentioned before with the insurance, the competition of the insurance is not just other insurance companies is not doing anything the alternative.
So the alternative of hearing my podcast now is not hearing other people editors podcast is just doing nothing. You will see Netflix or or going to sleep or something like that. By the way, I heard an interview of the CEO of Netflix, and he said that the biggest competition is a competition of Netflix is happy because he said, because we we try to to to keep people awake when they see us, because usually they see us at the end of the day, you know?
So we need them to, to be awake because the alternative is to go to sleep early.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. Well, I just want to mention if there's anyone who decides to do nothing, instead, listen to the rest of the podcast. You're going to miss some really interesting stories it Doctor Zaid has with Jordan Belfort and Tony Robbins, so you don't want to choose that. You want to.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Keep.
Daniel Burstein: Keep tuned in to this podcast. Let me ask you a follow up. Can.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: You give us a specific.
Daniel Burstein: Lesson? I think that was a great with the webinar, but maybe like a, like a bigger product. I mean, I understand, like, maybe one of your first books was a failure.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Burstein: Because I'll give you one quick example while you're thinking about that, I interviewed Hilary Young, the brand strategist at Hilary Young Creative and one of her lessons was don't focus on failure. Keep moving towards success. So that first webinar is a great example because there was a failure there. But how do we move towards success? And she told the story.
She worked at the Colbert Report over its first three years. And what she saw right up front, I think that was a very successful show, she said. They were failing left and right, just, you know, because they were trying to find their voice and trying to find out who they were. And that's what it took. They had that failure.
Then they kept moving forward, and they finally found out what that show was going to be. And obviously it was very successful. So doctors need for you. Do you have a sense of like, you know, I understand your first book was a bit of a failure, but then clearly I think 11 books or however many mentioned you use that failure to move towards success.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yeah. So okay, so first of all, I'm, I'm, I'm Jewish and I will never know what to talk about. Jewish that they were good in business, good in economy. And in, in, in far East Asia, and in the Far East and in Asia, people admire the Jewish people because they think we are great in business.
There is saying, you know, Jewish memory, Jewish negotiation, Jewish parenting. You know, there are there are phrases. There's a real myth about the the, our capabilities. I it's not I said to my clients, you know, if you are Jewish, people go to Asia. The don't don't talk too much. Just smile and wave. You know, because they do they will think highly of you.
So I came back from a from China and I was amazed from the how they admire Israeli startup nation and and also the Jewish people. So I and I had a business book. It was in English. It was it called it, it was called in Hebrew. And the name in Hebrew is is not this is not the meaning.
You persuaded me. Okay, but they thought it is. It's lousy name for, for, for for international book. So after I got back from the East, I called my my book. Okay. The Jewish persuasion. Okay. This is the head title, and the subtitle was How to Say Like a Jew. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. You know, in American history, you understand it.
Then I put this on Amazon. Okay. And I'm about 85% of readers on Amazon are Americans. You know, in in America, the politically correct, you know, you can say something like this. You know, there was a saying in the United States, don't you? Me? You know, don't you? Me meaning you know that when you say it's like, it's like a curse, you know, don't try to in a way, to raise prices or something like that or to scare me or something like that.
So, when I was, if I sold it, it, in the Asia, for example, China, Vietnam, India, it was the title was great, but the United States failed miserably because people just so you know, so I was in book fairs, international book fairs, and I was in a meetings with, with big American publishing houses. And they were, you know, when they saw the name, oh my God, no, no, no, no, we said, we can't buy this book.
You can take this book. And then what they did after I realized, you know, for the first time, you don't have to sell it. You know, maybe after the ten meetings, you understand there was a problem. And what they did is I took the same book with site the differences, and I called it change the name and I call it in United States.
I call it creative marketing, creative marketing. And then the subtitle was, The Secrets of Sales. Marketing, negotiation, something like that. And it went well in United States. It became a bestseller on Amazon. So, so just say book, little adjustments, different title, different coverage by the way, and the different results. I mean, it's somewhat better. But the the failure was that, again, we talked about the adjustment that the same title was very, very good in China and it was very bad, the United States.
But the actually in China, it was like a blessing, you know, to be like Jewish people and United States, it was like racism. So same title.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah, I'm moving to China. Then. But okay. So people do judge a book by its cover. Well, that's some we just listen to some lessons. From what? Doctors aides, maintenance career. In just a moment, we're going to learn some lessons. And here are some stories about the people he, made some of those things with. But first, I should mention that the how I Made It in Marketing podcast is underwritten by MacLeods I, the parent organization of marketing Sherpa.
You can get a three month free scholarship to the I Guild and get conversion focus training from the lab that helped pioneer the conversion industry. Get your scholarship at join Dot Mech Labs ii.com. That's joint Mech Labs i.com to get that free scholarship courtesy of Mech Labs AI. All right. So as I mentioned, you know, we build things.
Yes. That's something we do as marketers. We make things. We make it with people, we learn from people. And so let's take a look at some of the people you've learned from in your career. The first person you mentioned is Jordan Belfort. That name might sound familiar to some people. He is the famous wolf of Wall Street. Leonardo DiCaprio played him in a movie.
You said you learned from him. Effective storytelling is a tool for persuasion. How did you learn that lesson from Jordan?
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yeah, I was, I was when he came to Eastwood. He came to Israel in 2014, 2014, ten years ago. And he had the biggest, by the way, I think till today, the biggest a lecture in Israel, 3000 people in the the Adelphia conference, which is the biggest conference in Tel Aviv. And he did a full day, sales workshop.
And I was the lecture before him. I was chosen to I'm one of the biggest, most, if any lecturer in sales in Israel. So I was selected to be before him and in front of the audience and I had the I had the, time with him, and he talked to me about storytelling and what I, what I learned from him.
It's two things. First of all, if you tell a story told me that, for example, I saw there the movie The Wolf of Wall Street and what they did, it was a scam. But because he sells some stocks, for example, shitty stocks. And he told people that there were great stocks, you know, there would be very rich, etc..
So actually, like two people. Okay. Lied. And the whole system of lies. But the sales scripts were great. And the way he, handle these is workers was great. And the way he talked to his workers, you know, and you can see it on the movie as well. It is a Sunday morning, you know, where a Monday morning when they when they went to work, it was great.
Okay. So if you take the story and you change the story from a shitty product to a great product and if you listen to us, you know, marketers, you know, and the point was probably you had good, good products you believe in, right? So take the story and you tell the story about a good product. Then you do good and you provide value and you can succeed.
Because again, people don't buy the products, they buy the story and the story can be there. There are many kinds of stories. So they can be, story about yourself because people would like to get to know, you know, to, to be, to identify with you. It's stories about former former clients. Because then people can trust you because they say, okay, you are not your first client, that you already work with other clients.
So we could talk, we could tell you the stories about the about success. It can be stories about failures as well. We talked about failures, by the way. People love failures even more. They love success because then they say, okay, this guy, first of all, is human, is authentic. He's not trying to be. Someone is not. And, you know, nobody has, you know, 100% success with all clients.
And second of all, he already did mistakes. So when will they walk with me? You won't do mistakes because you gain some experience. So stories about about the mud failure very it's very, very good. And also what the job taught me is about the we talked about failures. You know, there is a line of lectures start in the startup world in the high tech companies.
It's called a fuckup nights. What is fuckup nights is entrepreneurs talk about failures to other entrepreneurs. Okay. So people with money to hear it. Now the twist here is sometimes the story is in my first company. You know why? I lost $100 million of investors? My second company, I closed it and I got divorced. My first company companies, people, you know, something like that.
So? So failure. Failure. Success. Okay. But nobody talks about it. You won't hear a story about my first company. I lost $100 million of my existence. My second company, I built it, then I got, and got into divorced. And now I am unemployed. I'm homeless, and I. I live next to the trash can can in your house.
Okay. Something like that. So. So nobody speaks. Usually it's very famous success, but people enjoy hearing about it. You know, we don't run by the way we talk. We we, recorded before the election. He wrote a book about negotiation, United States, right, in the 80s when he was, when he was in there, really, interested. And what is interesting about this book, this was before the internet, before they did this show.
They show the internet before the election, before everything. And if if we just write a story about himself, then he's not interesting because he was a second generation of money in, in, in New York for real estate. So you have just in New York City, you have hundreds, thousands of people like you. You're not interesting. But what was interesting in the book about the art of negotiation is that, yeah, inherent, a lot of money, something like $400 million.
He magically managed to lose everything, okay. And be bankrupt. And then he became multimillionaire again. And then by miracle, he began, he lost the money again. Okay? He bankrupt for the second time, and then he became again multimillionaire. Now, this is a great book. This is something I would like to learn because it. We can talk about failures.
We can talk about, we can talk about success and we can talk about resurrection. Is there action? This is what is great because people are, they love the fact that you failed. And then you learn from the fails, then the failures, and then you you managed to to rise again. Okay, so storytelling again about yourself, about clients, about other about other people, about case studies that happen, but first about success.
People love stories. Think about it. When we were young, when we were born, we people thought on the stories, right? This is a fable we know. So if you tell a story to a client, people love it. If you write about the story, people will read it. This is something I learned from Joni Mitchell.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. So I wonder also Jordan Belfort, we talk about persuasion. I feel like sometimes that word is like a double edged sword. And I wonder, how can we be ethical persuaders and not be manipulators? You have a lot of principles for everything, whatever your principles for that. Because when you bring up Jordan Belfort, you know, on the one hand he pleaded guilty to fraud, right?
I mean, as you mentioned, he he had good principles, but he was using them in a bad way. Then he became an FBI, FBI informant. It seems like maybe he's trying to turn around that that that area. So do you have any principles of that? Like how persuasion is good, but how can we use it ethically and not manipulate people?
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Yes. So so I, I believe I work only with companies. I, feel connected to their values. For example, let's say Coca Cola, for example. If I think is bad for you, it's not healthy, then I won't help them build a campaign which will increase their income in 20%, because I think more Coca Cola to the world is bad.
And by the way, I also drink occasionally Coca Cola. But but that's just for the the principle. So I, I tell everyone of you, you all have values okay. And I think have we all have instinct. Instinct that we know when we are doing something good in something bad, or when we do something that will help humanity or people that do it will be worse.
For example, in gaming, I think that they encourage gaming is not good, okay, because you encourage people to sit in the basement and to be more hours in front of the computer and, you know, to gain fat and to be, you know, it. Don't communicate the value of something that I'm not work. I don't work with gaming companies, although they are very it's very profitable a sector.
So I believe that, I believe that, that you need to choose your values. You need to choose, what you think help the world, and then a work with companies or small medium businesses that align with this, with those values. Okay. And what we want to say about universal, again, the principles were great. The scripts are great if you just like to people is so bad, it's not going to say that it is good stock.
But if there is a stock you believe it's good. And if the company of the stock, is happy, everyone, then by all means said it, you know, so I think each market, they can define their own limits. And I trust you that you will do the, good job about it. So the principle just be aligned with you, with yourself.
And, you know, at the end of the day, we all need to stick to the night. So if I stick with the night, it's okay. And I will give you another test. It's I call it the the dinner. If your kids this. You know, if your kids ask you a dinner. Father, what did you do today?
You're. What do you do today? And you could tell them exactly what you did today, all day long without, you know, missing details, you know? Great. But if you did something you are not proud of and you want to tell your kids, then something is bad about it, even if it's legal, you know, maybe it's illegal, but it's not more.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant. I, you know, sometimes I talk to some marketers. For example, some of the things that Unesco or whatever. And I'm thinking like, you know, there's a lot of ways to make money. Like it's not only that way if.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: If you feel.
Daniel Burstein: Like you're stuck in doing those bad things, find another way. You've got the skill set. The same skill sets apply to something positive. Let's get more positive in the world. All right, let's talk about someone who, I everyone's heard the name. Maybe they think he's superhuman, but you got to see up close and learn from Tony Robbins, right?
Everyone's heard Tony Robbins. You said this is what you learned from Tony Robbins. Be Batman. Because nobody is really Superman with him like that. And how'd you learn that?
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Okay, so first of all, I heard about Tony Robbins many years ago, when I well, I live in Israel, so I heard a lot about he's the biggest performer in the world. And I also, performed a good performer myself. And I always try to talk more about public speaking, a little more about public speaking. So they told me he's the biggest, the present, alive.
So I said to myself, I need to hear him, to to go to to a seminar. And, in 2011 15 for me, a year from now, if, reform, I go I, went to a you are you are from Florida. So it was in Florida, I think it was, next to Miami, not Miami, Fort Lauderdale in Miami, Florida.
I went to see him in a seminar up there. Least I believe in a back then, it was smaller than today. Today, this seminar is, I think, something that 11,000 people come. Then only 2000 people came. And you can see them from close, from the stage. Now, one of them, this was Tony Robbins. He doesn't eat and doesn't drink for the entire for the entire day.
You know, we you know, we he delivers, you know, eight hours in a row, a workshop. You know, he doesn't have a, a break anything. How can he do it? You know, it was it was like a myth. Okay, so where I, I said to myself, okay, I also provide many, many hours, of, of workshop in Israel and abroad, and I need to drink and I need to eat and I need to to breathe.
Okay, so let's go to the biggest magician. Magician alive and like, you know, like, when you're in a magician, show your, you know, your other magician. And they look at their and they, they have, you know, and everyone looks to the right. And then for the left takes the pigeon and big enough, you know, and you look to the left.
So I said to myself, I'm going to tell your audience. And I go to listen to the content. By the way, the content is right. It helped me a lot back then. But what is what my focus is, is looking at him and seeing what he does, you know, and I saw that, for example, he provides exercise to people and he says to people, look over there and then he has a small table next to him with a little bit of olives, you know, and move to something.
And I see him take something to eat, and I see him doing something. And then after, after a session of four hours, people say it was amazing. He didn't eat anything, he didn't drink anything. And I see the, the, the full, the full, picture. So my the principle was that this is something I teach my clients as well as, first of all, be authentic.
Don't try to be something you're not. And second of all, don't try to be bigger than life. Because again, I, I, I felt that when Tony Robbins say at the last day, you know, so this is a workshop and say you should come learn from me. And I said to myself, what if you are Superman? I have a problem only for me, because if you're just talking about how great you are and you have a, you know, way, entire result in Fiji and you were, you know, consulting to two presidents and I'm not and we have a very, very, a good gap, a very long gap between us.
Then I'm not feeling comfortable learning from you and pay you lots of money. So the principle is being Batman and Superman, because what is the difference between Batman? Superman? They're both superheroes, right? And they both look like a human being. But Superman is not actually a human being because he came from Krypton. So if Superman will have a workshop of how to fly, okay.
And I sit in the first row and I write everything, it says and explain exactly what to do, go to the highest building, go to the roof, you know, and and check the wind, you know, and the first thing and I will do exactly what he says I'm for. I want to fall because I'm not superhuman. I don't know how to fly.
But if Batman will have a workshop, how to fly Batman is an ordinary person who developed and not ordinary tools or powers. So people will say to me, well, you know, if you know, we are the same actually high the war struggle then heroes, because the Joker killed my parents when I was young and they I fell into a cave.
But I was afraid of darkness. And I were afraid of bats. And then I taught myself how to overcome it. You know, we talked about resurrection, and then I taught myself how to fly. And those are the tools I use in order to fly from one to another. And then I could go and sit in the in the workshop and relate to it and say, okay, if I would like to be Batman, I need to invest the time and energy and money.
But eventually I can do it because he's like me. So people are more connected to people who like them. So if you try as marketers and as entrepreneurs to be bigger, the life and to be, to, to, to be considered is not human. It's bad for business because people, even especially today in 2024, they would prefer to be a they, they prefer, you know, the authentic version of, you know, we prefer, you know, to talk about those failures that you talked about, to talk about also the disadvantage of the product, not just the advantages, because nothing is perfect, you know, they trying to be and they would like you to be honest with them.
So the principle here is again, don't be you know Superman be Batman, be the best version of yourself, but don't be afraid to talk about also, disadvantages or failures, especially if you learn from them. This is what I talked about. Fuck up. Nice that it's for your famous success. This is a good story for your first success.
Okay, Donald Trump's case, he said, is success failure, success, failure, success failure? No. Even if it's not running for presidency. Okay. And one once we are we called it we don't know what will be the results. But the fact that he won for the first time and he failed for the second time and he runs again. Again, this is the resurrection that people of, you know, the the story it never mind.
What is your political opinion? Okay. It's the it's the fact that people admire the fact that businesses can rise again and continue in and and failing forward. Okay.
Daniel Burstein: Let me ask you, you you talk about Tony Robbins. He's a famous speaker. I know I think you had a, you yourself won some big speaking award. You spoke 2500 lectures. Are there any principles that are different when we're engaged in 1 to 1 communications? And I ask you because, I mentioned, the CMO of Anyhow Systems, I interviewed on how I made it a marketing before.
One of his lessons was foster trust and community cooperation through transparent communication in M&A. And they did a lot of mergers and acquisitions. And he talked about, you know, when you're mergers and acquisitions, I like to think that founder is almost like a superman. Sometimes you see them coming in like a Superman, but now they're in a whole different universe.
I don't know, maybe they're back on Krypton. I don't know the right analogy, but they're they're in a bigger company. And so when you merge the companies, it's not just getting these operations right and all that stuff. It's getting that human element right with that founder. And so for him, it was really sitting down with the founders, also understanding the human drivers and building that trust in cooperation and understanding the human element of it and, and how much this founder's life has just changed from being like, yes, he got this pot of money or she but they went from being the Superman, being the king, whatever you want to call it to.
Now being another cog in this bigger company. So of all these, different principles you talk about that we should use in marketing, which is a mass media, often in public speaking. Is there anything different we should do in 1 to 1 communication, especially, you know, during M&A?
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Greg, of great examples, Daniel and I11I prefer all time ask questions, open questions and listen to the other side. Because the difference, by the way, between marketing writing and one on one is if I say to you, if you want to one I will, I would like to know your specific needs. And then I can be the answer to your needs, your specific problems.
And then I can speak this. I can be the solution to your problems. Your specific pain. And then I can be or the cure to your pains. Okay, but if I write marketing writing, then obviously I write to many, many people for many, many reasons. They they read me and then I try to to navigate my need to, to consider many, many problems and many, and many aspect of their of of why to read me now one on one.
If I say to you, first of all, we have an eye contact and, and then I will ask you question, open question, open question or question, that the answer is not yes or no. Closed questions. Is the answer a yes or no? For example, if I say Daniel yesterday, 7:00 pm, did you worry at home? So the answer is yes or no, right?
It say we close the conversation, but if I ask Daniel, where were you yesterday, then you can, you know, go share stories. You could talk for ten minutes without interruption. Okay. So I would like to speak with you. I would like to ask you, open questions. I would like to be very interesting in you. And actually, I think the number one principle in sales and marketing is love your clients, just love your clients.
Be curious. You know, where they actually take interest in people. Okay, so I will ask a question. I will listen carefully. Maybe I will write it down. I will try to understand, to identify out of all of your stories, the specific problems you have, needs you have. Then I can when I, when I go to start something to, I can say, well, Daniel, I've got the perfect solution for you because you mentioned the problems with A, B, and C, so I have a product that solves A, B and c, so one and one I need to really understand.
So listen to you by the way marketing and marketing people and them and entrepreneurs usually they don't like to listen. They like to talk okay I also like to talk. You like to talk. If you like to listen, especially you. You don't go to marketing. You're going to be shrink or, you know, a psychiatrist, you know, a psychologist or something like that.
Because or mediator, because you just need to learn to, to, to hear, to listen to people. But managers and entrepreneurs and CEOs, you know, when they're in such cases, usually I like to talk, but I say against your instinct, against your instinct, you need to learn how to listen to people, listen carefully to gather information, okay, to document the information, to write, to serve.
You know, and you can easily, contact information, something like that. And then use the information either it's in this meeting or the next meeting or something like that. And when you actually listen to someone he appreciates, you know, when he admires it and people usually don't listen to one another, especially in the digital era. So if you see one on one and you listen to someone and you actually refer to to his problems, they love it.
And then the chance of selling is much higher.
Daniel Burstein: Yeah. That's perfect. I mean, that's essentially what we try to do a lot with digitally, right, is get that personalization right for that one on one marketing. But we as humans do not overlook that. One more lesson here. You said positive messages win over more people than negative messages. And you learn this from Gill Parrot. So who is Gill and how did you learn this from work?
Yeah.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Good parents is, one of the most successful Israelis. Alive is now in United States, in the Silicon Valley and, and the, teachers, public speaking. Then their sales and marketing, you wrote a book based on a book in United States about the the secrets of Obama, Obama speeches, Barack Obama, and what I learned from him is positive thinking, because all the time, you know, if you talk about people are, more related to the positive energy, and if you just being negative all the time, you talk about bad things, people maybe hear you, but they don't buy from you or they buy from you.
And then when I was a chairman of a vice, is a, organization that helps disabled people, join the business world. And before that, I was the chairman of the debate society, my university, when I. Well, I studied law and economy, and I was the chairman of the debate society, and I raised money to my, society.
And they once said there was a donation, dinner to many, and people came a rich people came to the university in Haifa to donate money. So after they took him for a few days, cause, you know, in the western, the Western Wall and the Sea of Galilee and all the sightseeing in Israel, we had a very big, gala dinner, in which a few members of organization needed to, to ask them for money.
And I was there, there were five of us, and I was number five. And what I, I tried to raise money to go to, competitions worldwide. So for example, we, we were a bunch of students, okay. Not a relatively poor student. And, and we tried to raise money for flights and hotels, to participate in a debate.
The competitions, European competitions, worldwide competitions were brought. And before me there was, the, the and chairman of the library and was the chairman of, you know, the, students, the society and all the speakers before me. They I saw them all the time, you know, talking about how poor they are. They don't have money. The books are falling apart, you know.
Yeah. Well, if you don't get money, we're going to be bankrupt. And we are very poor, we are miserable, etc. and I thought to myself, I'm going to ask money to fly to competitions abroad, you know, so, so how can I compete? You know, there are poorer than me. There are more miserable to me. How can I compete with them?
But but then I look, you know, and I and I had a speech about, you know, that we need the money and, and we don't have money to fly, etc. but when I looked at the faces of the donors, I found out that they they don't like this approach. It's not like the the who is who is broke.
It was poor competition. You're always more miserable competition because everyone just said no, no, I'm more miserable. Give the money to me. And then I changed my my story. And they how did they do? The reason I started talking about I decided to talk about the how to be excellent, not the not the miserable. So I talk to them.
First of all, I had that preparation about the audience, so I knew the donors where they came from. So one came from. Yeah, one came from Harvard. One came for me for mam, Cambridge, something like that. So when I talked to them, I thought I told them, well, we represent Israel, represent Haifa abroad, and we go to competitions.
And we were very successful last year. We went to, to South Africa and we won first place in the world. I personally won, by the way, 2002. And last year we, we reached a semifinal of a European Championship and we beat Oxford. And then the guy from Oxford, the like, oh, we will be talkSPORT and then.
Yes. And the quarterfinal was against Cambridge and the actual coach okay with Cambridge. Yeah. And I would like to be to, to be successful again next year. And I would like your money to go next year to at the same places. And and they represent Israel and that to do to win awards. So out of the five people, I was the only one who got money this, this night.
Okay. That night and the the guy from the library got coupons for for to buy to buying the books. You know, on their bookstore or something like that. I was the only one who got money. I asked to check something. I think $5,000. I got the check or $5,000 that night. And this is because my approach of positive approach, positive thinking.
Okay, so this is I realize it. So when I talk also to the party all the time, tell me, just talk about positive thing. Give people hope even if they think the worst times, you know, talk about hope, not about, you know don't don't don't. We talked about inspiration, not desperation. You know, it's easy to despair people by the way the media is doing it great.
You know, if you open the, you know, they open the news each day. You they will say to you, good evening. And then you explain to the entire evening why it's bad if you know. So they just just because they also say it's, you know, if you take, you take to, two newspapers, what will say tomorrow will be, shiny, shiny and, you know, the sun will rise the second of all, the second one of them say a storm is coming, you know, so people will buy more the second, because the storm.
Right? Then it's a bad news. So the media always despair us. But we need as mentors, as entrepreneurs, as business owners, to become, inspirational, okay, and inspire people. And this is why positive thinking is very good.
Daniel Burstein: I think there's a maybe a great lesson there for nonprofits. And you talked about elevator pitches and you talked about only working with right companies and value in the past. I wonder if you have any lessons for how do you find that value? How do you find that value proposition? Because, for example, I know you're Chairman of Arpa, which I think you mentioned, which I think means brotherhood, and it's an organization integrating people of disabilities into the business world.
And when we hear about those types of things, you know, it's often this kind of negative thing. But I once heard this just beautiful story and Fast Company magazine and it talked about in Israel, you know, the IDF, almost everyone in the country serves to protect countries, you know, different than United States, other countries. And they we're looking at some people with what we would consider have disabilities like autism and some of these spectrum disorders.
And they said, well, no, we're not going to just clude them. Let's not look at what their weaknesses are. Let's look at their strengths. And they found that they were so good and focused that they were very good with intelligence. They could look at these, you know, satellite maps of different areas, and they would notice these little changes that maybe a terrorist might make to hide a weapon in a bush or something where someone who didn't have you know, some of those, spectrum issues, you know, wouldn't have the patience to do or wouldn't notice those things.
I thought that was such a beautiful story of not saying, like, to your point, what is a negative?
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: What is a.
Daniel Burstein: Positive that that person has with whatever, whatever cards they've been dealt in life? So for nonprofits this time of year, I was getting a lot in the mail about these things. And it is kind of depressing, I'll be honest with you about everything that's going on the world.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: So what advice would you give them? Like how do.
Daniel Burstein: They find that value proposition to have a positive message?
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: In general, the value proposition again is, is hope. And and and positive stories and they're providing examples by the by. Yeah. You mentioned in some examples. But to give one example, you know where it will start. In the former president of Russia, he said that the one 1 million dead people in a war is a statistic statistic.
And one one soldier dying is a story, you know, and people are more driven by stories. So if I say to what do you know, if there is a tsunami in Southeast Asia and 20 million people die? Okay, what's for lunch? Okay. But if I tell you one story of one baby and I tell you the story of his life, and then I will show to you and how he was killed in a, you know, awful tsunami.
Then he will donate to the to the cause. So in general, you know, examples, stories that, that they that can, you know, relate to your heart and also a positive hope that what what you're going to do with them one on one and one with the donors. I always try to understand them where they come from. What is the why?
Because, for example, if a donor has a, someone in the family that is disabled with disabilities, then it will more likely will contribute to to a nonprofit organization that helps disabled people. Right. And if a donor, for example, was a was a kid in Norway, right. They had the kid, oh, I don't know, way with, with people, you know, with, without something like that.
And people laughed at him, then you understand what is to be, you know, where, to be someone left. Left aside. Okay, so he's not he wasn't disabled, but he can can address it. So I try to understand where they come from. And then I try to relate, you know, the cost to to their needs or to their personality.
This is one on one. Let's go. Well.
Daniel Burstein: If you had to break it down, what are the key qualities of an effective marketer? He told us all these stories appreciate learning from them. But if you had to just give us a final synopsis a minute, in the end, what would you say? What are the key qualities of an effective marketer.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: To be innovative, to be innovative to to where, you know, where, adapt yourself all the time. We talked about adaptation to target audiences, maybe even for, for the technology, for example, when the Covid started. Well, you know, lectures were gone, you know, conferences were gone. People needed to stay at home. So, we needed to, to adjust ourselves to do it by zoom.
Okay. I saw books. The bookstores were closed, so I needed to find a way to increase the the income for my digital, the digital books or audiobooks, because, again, the people so need to adapt to save all the time. So being innovative, to initiate things don't don't wait for things to happen, you know, create your own reality.
Try again and again and again, learn from your failures and move up. Move forward. We talked about the no no no no no no. Yes. So so we need to try more again and again. And don't be afraid of no. And always think of the. Yes. Because people I mentioned that people see the success. They don't see the lab hours.
So in order to to succeed in marketing in a in business, you need to have the lab hours to invest, the time to invest the money, to invest the energy, to, you know, and to continue forward and at the end, to learn from others. Also learn from experts. No. Read books, listen to podcasts, you know, consult with others.
And the most important, love your audience, love your client. And taking nap. They could next month.
Daniel Burstein: They can have. Well, I love my audience. Thanks everyone for listening. Thank you for sharing what you've learned in your lab hours. Doctors aide. It was been great having you on. Thanks for being here.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Thank you. Know, I just want to mention if I my website is Doctor persuasion.com. It's a DRP or Sewa science.com. So if you'd like to love this so please check my website. And also my, 21st Century Sales Bible. My best seller book is available on Amazon and on bookstores in North America and Asia, so feel free to contact me at any@any.com, my email and I will be happy to answer any questions you may have.
Daniel Burstein: Because we love our audience of Reach Out and we love you guys. Always fun. So all right. Thanks everyone for listening.
Dr. Yaniv Zaid: Thank you.
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