Public Relations and Marketing: Don’t underestimate the soft sell (podcast episode #154)

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Some of the best conversations I have with my kids are during filler time. Not the quality time you hear hyped up – just a side conversation over breakfast, or driving to an errand, or putting together Ikea furniture.

Marketing and public relations can be the same. Instead of focusing all this attention on forcing a customer to take an action, give them value in other ways and naturally bring up your product. Like this episode’s guest’s story about selling insurance by bringing owls and foxes to schools.  It’s not an aggressive sales pitch, it’s the side conversation.

Which is why a key lesson for this episode’s guest is – ‘don’t underestimate the soft sell.’

To hear the story behind that lesson, along with many more lesson-filled stories, I talked to Kelly Coulter, head of marketing, Private Advisor Group.

Private Advisor Group has $35.2 billion in advisory assets under management. Coulter leads a small but mighty team of five at the investment service firm, a team located all across the country.

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Lessons from the things she made

Learn from your mistakes and “let it go”

Over a decade ago, Coulter had created a direct mail campaign for an event with a “visit the website” call to action (CTA). This was before QR codes became so popular. The team and Coulter created the copy, creative, and worked with the mail house on execution. It wasn’t until the job was at the printer and after business hours that they realized they mixed up the words for the domain on some of the mailers.

She was stressed and frustrated that they didn’t catch it in the many rounds of proofing, so she began frantically researching how to purchase the incorrect domain and just direct it to the proper address. Of course, someone already owned it, and it was going to come at a hefty price tag.

Her CMO at the time, Michael Zuna, messaged her the Frozen song “Let It Go,” which not only helped de-stress the situation but sent the message that we’re human, we make mistakes, and sometimes you must just learn from them and let it go.

What’s funny is not one person messaged them about the incorrect domain, so hopefully they figured it out. And, she hasn’t made that mistake since!

Preparation is the key to success

After joining Private Advisor Group, then-CEO RJ Moore announced he would transition to Board Chair and appoint President Frank Smith as the new CEO. Executive transitions can often carry risk; Coulter has seen similar announcements at other firms result in up to 10% attrition. To ensure a smooth handoff, she partnered closely with Moore and Smith over several months to develop a comprehensive internal and external communications strategy.

This included a detailed, minute-by-minute rollout plan, a formal press release, messaging guidance with Smith, Moore, and other key spokespeople, FAQs, targeted email campaigns, 1:1’s, and live webinars. They truly tried to anticipate every potential question and concern, and as a result, the transition was seamless, with no known attrition – a result they are all incredibly proud of.

Collaboration is powerful

One of Coulter’s favorite collaborations has been with the team at Private Advisor Group for the launch of Greenhouse, their intranet that houses all their tools and resources for advisors featuring single sign-on, a digital community discussion platform, and more, replacing an outdated system.

Building and maintaining Greenhouse required close cross-functional collaboration with tech, global developers, operations, compliance, and engagement teams. With so many moving parts, success hinged on trust, clear communication, and shared ownership.

By tapping into the expertise across teams and aligning around a common vision, they built something far stronger, and far more useful, than any one team could have done alone.

Lessons from the people she made it with

Invest in your mental health

via Pandit Dasa, Mindful Work Corp. (former monk, mindfulness expert, author and international keynote speaker)

Coulter recently had the opportunity to collaborate with Pandit Dasa and the experience truly shifted her perspective on the importance of prioritizing mental health, both personally and professionally. As the keynote speaker at Private Advisor Group’s Annual Conference this year, Dasa combined powerful storytelling with compelling data to break down the lingering stigmas around mental health, particularly in corporate environments.

One of the ideas that resonated most with her was his analogy of “closing the apps in your brain” – a simple yet effective reminder to reset and recharge amid life’s and work’s constant demands. It was a timely and meaningful message, and she’s grateful for the lasting impression it left on her and so many others in the room.

Don’t underestimate the soft sell

via Jim Fowler (professional zoologist)

Early in her career while at Mutual of Omaha, Coulter had the chance to work with Jim Fowler, host Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom (a documentary show, sponsored by Mutual of Omaha that featured wildlife and nature) on a media tour around Phoenix. They appeared on live news segments and visited schools to engage families around wildlife education while subtly weaving in the importance of financial literacy. 

Fowler had a great way of making the message land, often joking that he was thankful to have insurance when rescuing wild animals like lions or wrestling alligators. The approach was memorable, relatable and effective. As a result, they saw a steady stream of referrals. That experience reinforced something she carries into every campaign: a soft sell wrapped in an authentic, engaging experience is often far more powerful than a hard push. 

Don’t be afraid to ask for help

via Barkley Payne, Invest in Others

Coulter volunteers with Invest in Others, a nonprofit that amplifies the giving efforts of financial advisors by supporting charities nationwide. She assists advisors with grant applications and nominations, and she serves on the marketing committee.

The team behind the nonprofit led by Barkley Payne, CEO of Invest in Others, is incredibly strategic and resourceful, often finding creative ways to maximize every penny of their budget. One of the things she admires most is their willingness to ask for help – whether it’s public relations, research, or tapping into industry influencers to further their mission.

They’ve shown time and again that asking for help doesn’t diminish the work, but it often invites others to step up. And more often than not, people do.

Discussed in this episode

Marketing Leadership Lessons: Kill snakes, create the category, assume noble intent (podcast episode #61)

CMO-CPO Collaboration: Bridge Marketing and Product for collaborative growth (podcast episode #95)

DTC Ecommerce: Your worst friend is still better than your best marketing (podcast episode #132)

Marketing Mentorship: 10 digital marketing lessons your fellow marketers learned from their mentors

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Full Transcript

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Kelly Coulter: Our team is so spread out across the country, I would have loved to huddle everyone in the room together. Didn't happen for this one, but we did host a variety of, update calls and we identified really specific individuals as success drivers. So we call them executive sponsors here, but we leverage those executive sponsors to make sure that, you know, when one of your teammates is asking, hey, I really need content for this particular section of the site.

You're the subject matter expert. Can you get it to me by this specific date? Sometimes you do need a little bit of management oversight to really drive that deadline and to clear clear the way, you know, make room in that individual's work week knowing that this is an enterprise launch. Everybody's in it together. So we're going to leverage, you know, not only the direct collaboration across team, but managers.

Intro: Welcome to how I made it in marketing from marketing Sherpa. We scour pitches from hundreds of creative leaders and uncover specific examples, not just trending ideas or buzzword laden schmaltz real world examples to help you transform yourself as a marketer. Now here's your host, the senior Director of Content and Marketing at Marketing Sherpa, Daniel Bernstein, to tell you about today's guest.

Daniel Burstein: But some of the best conversations I have had with my kids are during what I call filler time. Not the quality time you hear hyped up. This a side conversation over breakfast, dropping to an errand, or putting together Ikea furniture marketing can be the same. Instead of focusing all this attention on forcing a customer to take an action, even value in other ways, and naturally bring up your product.

Like my next guest story about selling insurance by bringing album boxes to schools. It's not an aggressive sales pitch, it's the side conversation where, as my next guest puts it, a key lesson for her was don't underestimate the soft sell. Here to share the story behind that lesson, along with many more lesson filled stories as Kelly Culture, the Head of Marketing Private Advisor Group.

Thanks for joining me, Kelly.

Kelly Coulter: Hey, Daniel, thanks for having me.

Daniel Burstein: Now it's going to be fun. So let's take a quick look at Kelly's background. So everyone knows from talking to she's had a long tenure in financial services from fortune five hundreds to start up firms. Kelly was a senior marketing specialist at Mutual of Omaha Bank public relations and social media director, as the chair of financial Group, among other roles, and for the past four years, she's been that private advisor group.

Private advisor group has $35.2 billion in advisory assets under management, and Kelly leads a small but mighty team of five located all across the country. So, Kelly, give us a sense. What is your day like as head of marketing?

Kelly Coulter: Yeah. Well, I love my job. So first I'll start that. It's very fun. And when I start my day, I typically start with a walk with the big dog. Before I'm working, I clear the head, get outside. We rescue Great Dane, so big Guy needs a big walk in the morning. Then I work out. Coffee is a must and then jump into my day.

Where? Take meetings from folks all across the country, sometimes all around the world. And I would say, like during the week, though, we will kick off our week as a team with editorial and we're planning editorial, you know, for the next in the coming weeks. So the whole marketing team will huddle on Mondays. And then another important part of our day splash week.

On Thursdays, we have sort of our start stop meeting. Where will, you know, what are your two highlights of things that you're starting working on that the team needs to know? Where are you stuck? Where are you stopped? Do you need any help? Those take place on Thursdays, and it's a great way. When you have a team that's spread all across the country to keep everyone connected, tuned in to what's happening and really in the know with all things that are moving across the marketing department.

Daniel Burstein: That's a nice bookend for the week. Let's start right. Let's end right. I like that. Well, let's take a look at some of the lessons that Kelly learned in her career. As I said before, I've never really done another career. I've never been an actuary. Or if I was, whatever. But I feel like we get to make things as marketers, and that's what's so cool about her job.

But also sometimes when we make things, things go awry. And that's. That gets into Kelly's first lesson here. Learn from your mistakes and let it go. So sounds painful. Tell us how you learned this lesson.

Kelly Coulter: Oh my goodness. So this is a journey. And I will say the let it go part is the part that I struggle with the most. So over a decade ago, we had this big direct mail campaign for one of our biggest events of the whole year and visit the website was the Call to Action. So this was before QR codes were really popular.

So, you know, you had the handwritten domain that people would then go type in and we created, you know, this beautiful mailer. It was like an accordion fold out it, you know, we did the copy, the creative. We worked with the mail house to pick even, you know, the matte, beautiful texture of what this print mailer would be.

And it wasn't until the job was getting released from the printer that I realized we mixed up the words on the domain name. So it was right. In one instance on the mailer, it was misprinted in another instance, and I was just so stressed and frustrated. It had gone through so many rounds of editing. Proofreading somehow got missed by all of us.

And I started, you know, just frantically searching what could we do? Can I purchase that domain and just redirect it? What an easy answer. Well, of course it was owned by somebody else already. And Daniel, if you've ever done you know, the domain bidding, that is not a quick process just to transition that. So that wasn't a solution.

So I'm sitting there racking my brain, chatting with my colleagues like, what can we do? This is so frustrating. And it's already been shipped out. And my CMO at the time, Michael Luna, he messaged me the frozen song Let It Go. And you know, it really helped. I was so stressed. We had this big event. There was so much planning, so much great work happening, and it was just that, you know, reminder, we're human, we make mistakes, and sometimes you need to just learn from them and let it go.

And, you know, it's kind of funny about that whole story is that not one person met message just about the incorrect domain. So they either went to the correct one or they just figured it out. It, you know, it didn't say anything, but it sticks with me. And that's one mistake that I have not made sense. Thankfully.

Daniel Burstein: I mean, I started my career in print and that was one thing I appreciate about digital. I remember publishing a brochure, we produced a brochure, expensive brochure for a luxury real estate property called Windsong. And, we're all proud of it. My art director is just showing it to the receptionist up front, and she's like, what's a Windsong?

I'm like, well, we have the time. Hawk Express. You know, it's it's spelled shark. But when it's a proper term, it wouldn't, you know, and so. Oh, we have to, you know, take out the guts and report it and that's that. That was a nightmare.

Kelly Coulter: It's just painful. And that happens.

Daniel Burstein: I'm thankful for digital, where you go in to make a quick change. But I'm curious, how has that experience influenced how you lead a marketing team now? Because for example, when I interviewed Shafqat Islam, the CMO of Optimizely, one of his lessons was Kill Snakes, and he talked about a story from Ross Perot who joked, if a big old school company like GM had a lot of snakes, a snake invasion, they'd hire consultants, they'd have their meetings or be quarter by quarter plans versus just killing snakes.

And he talked about how moving quickly in a fast paced, competitive market is so important. So the mindset he sets for his team is better than perfect. So that's a painful lesson you learned. And we certainly don't want to send the wrong URL, of course, but we can overcorrect sometimes as well. Right. And stymie speed and innovation. So I wonder how have you figured out to balance those things, and how is that experience influence how you lead a marketing team?

Kelly Coulter: Now that's and that's great advice or a lesson that he shared. Because, you know, you really do want to focus on progress over perfection. And so that is something that we remind ourselves as a team. Like if it's mostly there, you can keep editing, editing and, you know, overdo it to a certain degree. So we absolutely have those reminders of, you know, progress over perfection.

Let's keep moving this forward. And also when there are mistakes, because we are all human, you know, sometimes you do have to kind of, okay, what's the lesson learned here and how are we going to let it go? Like let's truly move on, refocus and recenter. I remember one of my direct reports, this is at a different event, but, this is a funny thing.

We miscounted name badges, so we had a whole, event. Everyone's coming in later that day and we didn't have enough name badges. And she comes and mentions it, and I said, well, let's call that by staples. Someone's going to have name badges. We're making a trip. And she kind of had big eyes and looked at me. We went and we found name badges.

We're fine. By the time everyone got there. And, you know, she pulled me aside later and just said, thank you so much for how you handled that. And I said, well, what did you expect it? She said, I thought you were going to yell. And it was a new a new relationship to her at the time. And I just said, oh, I don't think yelling really solved things.

You know, figure out what the solution is, learn from the mistake and let it go that well.

Daniel Burstein: And later you can worry about okay, what process and change, but in the moment help people not be stressed and anxious because we're not going to make good decisions when we're like that.

Kelly Coulter: Right?

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. And one key way we can avoid that and be successful in other things is by preparing. Right. And that's a key lesson you mentioned. Preparation is a key to success. So how do you learn this lesson?

Kelly Coulter: This is kind of kind of a fun one. So after joining Private Advisor Group, where I'm at today, then CEO RJ Moore announced he was going to transition to board chair and appoint Frank Smith as the new CEO at the current CEO. So, you know, executive transitions carry risk with anyone working in marketing, comms or, you know, executive level.

You've had to navigate that. And I've seen similar announcements at other firms where that can result in up to 10% attrition. Sometimes you're really, you know, you have clients or even employees that are really connected to that individual. So knowing this and to ensure a really smooth handoff, we partnered really closely. So Frank, RJ and I spent several months where we developed a really comprehensive internal and external comms strategy to support this transition.

So this plan included, you know, detailed minute by minute roll outs with from the formal press release to the public messaging guidance, frequently asked questions with anticipated answers. We had other key spokespeople ready to go to support the messaging targeted email. We had one to ones live webinars. It was a full plan, minute by minute that, you know, for the day of.

But then also post transition. What does that look like? We really try to, you know, anticipate every potential question and concern and really looked at strategy. So, you know, if we started to go off plan wait, what is our strategy? Let's go back to it. This is the timing. This is what we agreed to. This is what makes sense, you know.

And with that the transition ended up being really seamless. We had no no nutrition, which is rare. And it ended up, you know, all that preparation drove success and a result that still proud of to this day.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. Congratulations. So when I hear you talking, that seems like I can I can see that employee focus on keeping employees. I think we're talking about vision. I wonder if there's any specific things you did with other stakeholders. Because, for example, I'm pretty sure the way your company is set up right is it's there's others betting their business on your platform, financial advisor happy.

But other companies have versions of that. Some have franchises, you know, investors. But if you're a public company, you've got press analysts and all of these things. So, sure, yeah, the employees are important. But these other stakeholders, what we got to get them on board too. So, they seem like the employee focus there, which is awesome.

And maybe you're talking about more. I just wonder, like, how did you break down the stakeholders that you also had to keep on board? There's anything specific you did for different stakeholders?

Kelly Coulter: Yeah, that's a great question. Absolutely. So first you really have to be honest with yourself, you know, as a privately held firm, who are your true stakeholders, who needs to know the information and when do some people need to be clued in a little bit early? Are some, you know, immediately after the announcement goes live. So we have that detailed and I will say there were a handful of stakeholders that were informed ahead of the wired press release.

And when we're looking at something like that, it's really, really limited our audience. We time it so they hear after press hours, if you will, to, you know, prevent and contain any possibility of a leak. So we had, that pretty limited, I think, at the time we looked at, you know, maybe our advisor council. So, you know, that audience as well as, you know, a few limited investors that needed to be aware, but then in addition to that are after the release was live, there were other stakeholders on the list as well that maybe weren't as highly impacted and need to know as super timely.

They also got calls that day because you never want your stakeholders reading at something in the news and leaving that to interpretation. When you call and you let your important stakeholders know this is this announcement was made, here's what you can expect. Here's what we're doing. That's such a better feeling than oh my gosh, look what just happened to such and such firm.

So that was part of our plan. It remains part of all of our comms plans. Where do the stakeholders fit in? When are they being communicated with and who's leading that? And not only that, but what form of communication will an email suffice? Maybe. Maybe not. And if not, who is leading the direct outreach? So we literally had all of that assigned and detailed in our huge strategy that that we executed.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah, that's such a smart strategy because sometimes it's not just what people hear, but it's how they hear it. And if they feel like they have a closer intimacy to the firm and they find out in the public press again, it's like, maybe you're not. This is not one person, but these days everyone's a publisher. And if they take the link in their social media or whatever with their ideas, you're going to lose them versus, oh, hey, I knew about this ahead of time.

Whatever the news is, they're inside. You know, they'd have a different reaction just because of that. But it, brings up your next lesson so we can collaborate on lots of different levels. All second half of how I mean Americans by collaboration. So I love this, but we vibrate, of course, most tightly with our internal teams. And you said collaboration is powerful.

I feel like a lot of us have felt this. How did you specifically learn this lesson?

Kelly Coulter: Oh, my gosh, this is fun. And it's a lesson that's, you know, known. But this is really where it you just felt the power truly come to life. So one of my favorites was our team here launched a platform called greenhouse. So it's an advisor intranet. And it really houses all of private advisor groups, tools and resources in one platform.

The platform also offers single sign on technology. Which, believe it or not, sometimes financial services has a reputation for being a little bit slow to adopt single sign on. We have it for a lot of key partners that are advisors use every single day. It offers a digital community discussion group, which again, that's another thing that in a highly regulated environment that is a competitive advantage for us to offer, and it replaced an outdated system.

So building and launching greenhouse really required cross-functional collaboration with tech partners, with global developers, compliance engagement teams. It touched every employee at private advisor group. And so with so many moving parts all throughout the organization, success really hinged on trust, clear communication, shared ownership. And again, you know, having a really detailed strategy in place to follow and guide us through the launch of that was really what drove success.

But, you know, when you're tapping into the expertise and you're aligning teams around a common vision, we built a platform that was far stronger, more useful than any one person could have have done alone. And that was kind of where that power of collaboration was just so cool, so fun to see it come to life. And I'm proud to say, Daniel, that platform is now award winning.

We were named by, Investment News as one of the most innovative tech platforms. So that was a recent award for green House. And really, really proud that, you know, our community put in the effort, the maintenance, all of that to bring that to life. And now it's award winning.

Daniel Burstein: Well, congratulations. Can you take us into the room where it happened? Any specific examples of things you did to foster that collaboration? Because, for example, when I interviewed Tiffany Donilon, the CMO of amplitude, one of her lessons was Bridge Marketing and product for Collaborative growth. And she told the story of physically moving into the product teams office to foster collaboration.

When the goal was to launch 12 product innovation in two months. So for you, Kelly, any specific examples come to mind of how you fostered that collaboration?

Kelly Coulter: Yeah, yeah, that, that is a cool example. Our team is so spread out across the country. I would have loved to huddle everyone in the room together. Didn't happen for this one, but we did host a variety of, update calls. And we identified really specific individuals as success drivers. So we call them executive sponsors here. But we leveraged those executive sponsors to make sure that, you know, when one of your teammates is asking, hey, I really need content for this particular section of the site.

You're the subject matter expert. Can you get it to me by this specific date? Sometimes you do need a little bit of management oversight to really drive that deadline into clear, clear the way, you know, make room in that. Individuals work week knowing that this is an enterprise launch. Everybody's in it together. So we're going to leverage, you know, not only the direct collaboration across teams but managers.

Hey, we really need you to be aware that this is happening and make sure that you're creating capacity for your team members to contribute. So we had a lot of success by doing that and naming executive leaves to kind of help leverage project deadlines, reiterate, you know, sticking to plan and really making sure that team members, even if their manager, wasn't directly involved in the process, that those team members had capacity to truly contribute to the success of the platform.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah, well, collaboration is so key. Marketing. We've made it a whole second half of the episode of how I media marketing. And so in just a moment, Kelly is going to name names and talk about some of the key people that really helped her in her career that she collaborated with. And honestly, if you're listening, we don't do that enough in our careers.

Go on LinkedIn. Thanks. Someone right now helped you in your career. But before we get there, I should mention that the How I Made It and Marketing podcast is brought to you by MC labs, a I parent company of marketing Sherpa. Marketing Sherpa has teamed up with MacLeods AI to produce a research study. We are granting AI engineering vouchers to eligible companies.

You can learn more at MC labs. Dot com slash five K voucher. That's NBC labs.com/the number five the letter K and the word voucher okay Kelly let's talk about some of these people in your career that you really collaborate with. They've really had an impact on you and you and you learned a lot from them. The first lesson you mentioned was invest in your mental health.

And you said you learned it from pundit, author of Mindful Word Corporation, Uniform Wonk, Mindfulness expert, author, an international keynote speaker. So how did you learn this from under,

Kelly Coulter: Pundit is just an amazing, incredible human. And we recently had the opportunity to collaborate with him at Private Advisor Group's annual conference. We brought him in as a keynote speaker, because his message really hones in on the importance of prioritizing your mental health, both personally and professionally. And he uses really powerful storytelling, with data to break down some of the lingering stigmas that we have around mental health, particularly in corporate environments.

And you hear, you know, take care of your health, take invest in your mental health. But pundit was able to give us some tools to actually do that. And one of the ideas that just resonated with me most was his analogy of closing the apps in your brain. And you think of that, you know, you do that on your phone and your phone operates more efficiently.

Do we do that enough for ourselves in our own mental well-being? So it was a really effective reminder to reset and recharge amid, you know, the constant demands we all face on the day to day. And for me, it's it's one that I really took to heart and I actually apply. It was really simple. He actually took us through a breathing exercise.

And I think the exercise lasted ten minutes. Daniel. It felt like two. It was just wonderful to kind of pause, close your eyes, take some deep breaths and clear out everything that's going on in your head. In fact, I did it ahead of this podcast today just to make sure that I was, you know, closing out from prior meetings, resetting and ready to be fully engaged and present your year with you.

So my notes message is just one that will always stick with me. And I try to remind myself to take a moment to close those apps. And really, it's okay to invest in your mental health throughout the workday.

Daniel Burstein: Know I love that. And I got to an audience with something Kelly told me when we started talking. So a little behind the scenes inside baseball here, I asked for like a 90 minute time blocking, recording these partly because I want that first 15 to 30 minutes. You know, marketers are busy. Sometimes they're stepping in a budget meetings or board meetings, and you can't just step into the next thing and hit record and go through your career in this in-depth way and help an audience.

So when I was telling Kelly about that, she's like, I got to, I've been there. I was already doing that. I already know the right thing to do to prepare. So, Steve, because when you think of mental health, you know, it's like this personal wellness thing for sure, but it's also performance. It's like, if we got that right, we're going to perform.

So kudos to you for doing that. And it gets me thinking. So now, you know, you're a senior leader in your company and you're calm. Is there any things specific you do now or you have done with your career, your team or customers to help them best new mental health? Because, for example, when I interviewed Hunter Slagle, the CMO and co-founder of Party Bicycle, one of his lessons was you are not alone.

And he told the story of creating custom. You are not alone. Bicycle partnership with the You are Not Alone mural project to help destigmatize this conversation around mental health was really key for their branding. They were, so for you, Kelly, is there anything specific you've done, you're doing now or you've done in your career for your team, your customers?

Help them invest in their mental health?

Kelly Coulter: Absolutely. I love this question. I think there's a lot of little things that we do that add up to a big change. So one of them is calendar blocking. You touched on it just if you have a big meeting, whether that's with a client, with your team, you're presenting, give yourself a little bit of time block, you know if you can, an hour if you can't, even if it's 15 minutes ahead of, you know, that big meeting, that big event and slow down, let your brain refocus, transition into what you're going to, you know, focus on next and even practice or breathe or do something to really be invested in.

You know, that content, if you will. The other thing that we do here is, you know, we're not super set on I need you, you know, behind a screen from 8 to 5, I think. I don't I don't believe in that. I think that, you know, you need to get up, you need to stretch, you need to take walks.

And we're very good about reminding ourselves of that as a whole. At Private Advisor Group, one of our brand values is to enjoy the journey. And so sometimes if you are finding that it's getting too intense and you're back to back on zooms and you have a lot of deadlines, we will stop and say, hey, take a break.

That was an intense meeting. Let's take a walk. And that's common in our culture just to remind each other, let's enjoy the journey. It you can't just work at an aggressive pace all the time. You do need to step away, let a message resonate, and you often do come back as a better you and as a better teammate to your colleagues.

Once you do that.

Daniel Burstein: You know, the thing I really like about that is you have a work from home culture and something I've noticed transitioning from in-office to work from home. It's I feel more pressure to respond to slacks, like right away when you were in an office and people can see you so different, they see you're busy or this or that, like, okay, the slack and I got to respond right away.

So I love that you set that culture up of like, look, you don't need to be like shackled to your laptop because it could definitely feel that way sometimes.

Kelly Coulter: It's it's unhealthy in my opinion. Like I'm all about quality over quantity. Give me a comprehensive, detailed response that, you know, move the market versus just a quick hit sometimes can be misinterpreted or just not as effective 100%.

Daniel Burstein: So this next one is my favorite lesson. Anytime I go through a podcast guest applications and there's a lot of good lessons in here, but there's always one that just kind of jumps out of me and resonates the most. I think as marketers kind of goes along with mental health, too. When we have a goal, we just want to push, push, push, push, push, push the customer hard.

Go do this wherever the CTA is, right? But you said, don't underestimate the soft. And you learned that from all people, not from a CMO or CEO or anything from Jim Fowler, who's a professional zoologist. So how did you learn this lesson from a zoologist?

Kelly Coulter: This was, it's such a cool experience. So early in my career. I was probably, gosh, late 20s, early 30s. I had the chance to work with Jim Fowler. He was the original one of the original co-hosts of Mutual of Omaha Wild Kingdom. So back in the day, that was a documentary show that they produced featuring wildlife. And Jim and his co-host kind of, you know, navigating that journey, helping.

And also so Jim came in for a media tour here in Phoenix, and we did a variety of live news segments. We had special events in schools. We visited boys and girls clubs just to give them a little bit of high value wildlife education. Jim is a fascinating storyteller, so he talked a little bit about his experience on this show, and there was a very subtle message about the importance of financial literacy.

He, you know, had this great way you would he would help the message land by joking that he was thankful for Mutual of Omaha Insurance when he was, you know, wrestling an alligator or a lion or something like that. It always earned chuckles from the audience, but it was just this subtle reminder that, you know, good, good product placement, good plug for Mutual of Omaha.

But we were also in the room, said they want to carry on and talk about their financial services. The audience knew where to find that. They knew what was important, but it was just, you know, a memorable, relatable and effective way to help that that message resonate. And as a result of those tours, we would see a really lovely, steady stream of referrals come through host tours, and it reinforces, you know, a soft sell wrapped in an authentic and fun experience, an engaging experience that's so much more powerful than a hard push.

I think, you know, people tune out pretty quickly when you feel like you're being pitched out. It's not a good feeling and it's easy to tune that out. So just the importance of this last fall is really something that I think as marketers, we really need to consider and how we structure our approach and as sales leaders as well.

And Jim Fowler was just a wonderful, experience to really help that message resonate. You know, don't underestimate the soft sell.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah, I love that. And also, what I hear you saying is like, give value before you're asking for anything too, right? I mean, you're about giving back.

Kelly Coulter: Absolutely.

Daniel Burstein: Sponsorship. So I wonder when I, you know, makes perfect sense in kind of that B2C setting and there's a trust building element. But I wonder how you do that in B2B and especially in the kind of financial industry, because, you know, we there's this at least perception of the financial industry that it's very numbers driven. Right? We talk about the quants every day.

I see in the Wall Street Journal is this number. The S&P is up. Dow's down and all this stuff. And so it would seem like in that industry might be even harder because hey I just want to see the raw numbers I'm going to pick based purely on logic. Right. And nothing else. And like what are going to be the best performers here and there.

So I wonder how you bring kind of the soft sell idea into that B2B financial world.

Kelly Coulter: Absolutely. Well, I mentioned Jim Fowler was a fabulous storyteller, and that is a tactic we use in B2B to tell the story. So, you know, instead of just saying this financial advisor is well in tune to the markets, talk about what is their personal brand and story, and we encourage them. What's your nonprofit footprint? What are you doing in the community to show up?

So you're not this, you know, stuffy financial advisor, if you will. And we have an amazing, advisor community that really invests in their giving footprint all across the country. So that's been exciting to see how they've leveraged that as sort of a soft sale, because when you're out volunteering, you're out in the Chamber of Commerce doing different civic activities.

People will naturally ask, oh, hey, Daniel, what do you what do you do for a living? Tell me more about that. And you make some of those natural connections without feeling like it's all about numbers. Another interesting one to that just, you know, kind of storytelling. We challenge advisors, don't just post about finance, don't just talk about finance.

Tell about who you are. We had one advisor in particular. I always remember this. We had a chat with her and she said that she started posting about two things her dog and her son a couple times a year, and she actually had someone reach out. It was a huge referral for her and she said, I loved your post about your dog.

I'm an avid, you know, rescuer. And that message just resonated with me, always intimidated me. And that was really beautiful to see that story. And I wanted to get to know you better. And so using storytelling a lot, you know, it has to match with your brand and your identity and be authentic. But sometimes that's a great way to achieve that soft sell, if you will, and be an entry point to your audience.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. I mean, I got to say, I was looking for some financial professional help, not too long ago and reaching out to different firms and stuff and seeing and, and what I ultimately made the decision because, you know, we as markers I always encourage like as a customer kind of notice how you're making decisions because you know, your customers are going to do the same things because of the way we think at work as marketers sometimes, and then we think totally separately as customers.

We just naturally fall into that, that, customer habits and way of thinking. So I was looking for a financial firm, you know, and I was reaching out to some and all that stuff. And then the one I ultimately went with, I just felt similar or just more human in communications. And it was actually kind of more the human being.

I was dealing with it. And it's funny because going in that was not my goal. It was, like I said, more of numerical and sensible things. Then actually, you're like, you forget kind of like who? I actually have to work with this person, and I want someone who seems kind of human that I want to work with.

Kelly Coulter: And share your financial life and be comfortable with that. Their job is so important. And I love that you said that you want someone you have that trust with. You feel comfortable asking, hey, I think this is the right direction. What are your thoughts on this? And you really do need that human element behind, you know, the financial services aspect and and behind all of the research and planning and all of that.

There has to be a human element when you're dealing with people's finances. There are so many important steps on that journey, both good and bad. Maybe you have a fantastic promotion, maybe you have an inheritance coming, but you're really sad about, you know, that person that passed away, that financial advisor needs to support that and figure that, like, how are they going to make that personal to you, Daniel, and break through and help you navigate that journey in a meaningful way?

And after having sometimes, you know, shared stories and shared backgrounds and just being open and transparent and some of what you're navigating can really help the investor sitting in front of you, open up and, you know, be willing to accept the advice for what they're about to face.

Daniel Burstein: Absolutely. No matter what we know in whatever B2B industry, we're still humans helping. It's not business to business. It's people working in businesses to people working in businesses. Or in the case of, you know this, when it's professional services for consumers and still people have an expertise in the business, the people who need help there. Which is why I like your life lesson, because some of your lessons here, this one transcends marketing and even business.

It's just a very human lesson that some of your others have been, don't be afraid to ask for help. I think that's a universal truth. Not just for marketing. You said you personally learned this from Berkeley Pain, at the nonprofit Invest in Others. How did you learn this from Berkeley?

Kelly Coulter: Yeah. So this is, less of a fresh lesson. More validation, if you will. But Berkeley, is the CEO of Invest in Others. It's a nonprofit firm that I volunteer for. Private advisor Group also sponsors it. One of our co-founders sits on the board, John Hyland. So we have a lot of involvement with this wonderful nonprofit. And my role essentially, I help advisors when they're applying for grants or donations from invest and others, help on that side.

And then I help the firm on their marketing meet our marketing committee as well. And through that, I've just been so incredibly impressed with the team and Berkeley at Invest in Others. They are so strategic, resourceful. They find creative ways to maximize every penny of their budget. And one of the things I've just admired the most is their willingness to ask for help.

They will tap in and leverage their network. So whether they need assistance on public relations research, tapping into industry influencers, please share this to further their mission. They will ask, and it's in a beautiful, respectful way. And they've just shown time and time again that asking for help. It really doesn't diminish your work. It invites other people to step up and amplify your message and more often than not, people do.

So, you know, don't be afraid if you're thinking, gosh, I could really use help from so-and-so on this project, or I'd love to leverage this person's expertise. I say, reach out. It's not going to hurt if you get to know. And if you get a yes, you're going to get a little extra help and a little extra brain and mindshare into what you're doing.

Daniel Burstein: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a great lesson for all of us in our careers and in our roles. But as leaders also, I think kind of sometimes it's like going the next level. And I wonder if we have any examples of how you proactively help your team or customer before they even have to ask for help.

So, for example, when I, wrote an article about mentoring, my favorite lesson was from Christine Marvin, the CMO of Marvin Windows Doors, and she learned from her mentor. It's our role as leaders to matchmake. And you know, I think that's the key. It's it's matchmaking with the right mentors, but it's also, you know, getting your team in the right roles.

It's getting your customers or renters or partners like resources. I mean, there's a whole slew of things we have to do there and that kind of, you know, obviously we want to help them when they ask for help. We want to ask for help, but kind of proactively getting them the right information or the right mentoring and the right matching before they even ask for help.

I mean, that may be the highest level. So just wonder from your career if you have any examples of that, of kind of thinking maybe two steps ahead of whoever you're leading, where we're serving and how you proactively made sure they had what they needed.

Kelly Coulter: That's a great question. And I'll give you, you know, kind of one example, especially if you're working with young professionals that are entering, you know, your industry, opening doors and making introductions can be so incredibly impactful. But also being open to them doing the same. So, let's say that you're launching an RFP and, you know, this was a true example.

We were looking at web providers when we went through a brand and website refresh about a year ago. So we actually asked the entire team, hey, we're going to go through a website RFP. These are some firms that we would consider. Do you have anyone else? And I quote for the agency, I'd worked with them in previous lives that teed up that intro, but also stepped back like, here's one to consider, but I'm going to let you take it from here.

And the team was able to open relationships with other agencies and vet them through the process, and then land on the decision where they felt most comfortable. So giving them a little bit of guidance, opening the door, making introductions to the degree that you can, but then also being willing to accept and meet some of the introductions or parties that they might be interested in, I think is so incredibly, meaningful in, you know, showing respect to your young and rising stars, but then also getting them ingrained with some of the connections that have helped you in the industry itself.

So important.

Daniel Burstein: That's what I've heard from a lot of leaders that that biggest challenge and in getting leadership right and stepping back and enabling your team as opposed to kind of doing it for them, I think too much. So I think that's a great lesson. Well, Kelly, we've talked about many lessons about what it means to be a marketer, what it means to be a human and a business leader, and all that stuff as well.

But really also what it means to do this thing we call marketing. If you had to just break it down for us and European, what are the key qualities of an effective marketer?

Kelly Coulter: Yeah, I mean, there's some of the standard things you'd expect. Do you want someone that's creative? We talked about collaboration. I truly believe as marketers you really have to collaborate with sales individuals, with tech, with your whole organization. So, you know, some of that might seem pretty standard. But then you have to be able to use data to make meaningful marketing decisions.

So that's probably one that I will always look for. Always higher, always ask about in any interview or opportunity to vet. How are you using data to drive marketing decisions? So that's the one that I would leave you with. That's probably one of the most important in today's environment.

Daniel Burstein: Absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing all the lessons, your career, some of the key decisions you made. I learned a lot of that.

Kelly Coulter: Well, Daniel, it's been so much fun talking to you. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

Daniel Burstein: Thanks to everyone for listening.

Outro: Thank you for joining us for how I made it and marketing with Daniel Burstein. Now that you've got an inspiration for transforming yourself as a marketer, get some ideas for your next marketing campaign. From Marketing Sherpas extensive library of free case studies at Marketing sherpa.com. That's marketing rpa.com and.